We need Merchants USING Dash!

Status
Not open for further replies.
dashly said:
I own a business and the reason we don't accept cryptos is because we require transactions in realtime like visa/mc. We can't wait for confirmations. InstantSend is nice, but it will be useless for us and other merchants if there is no way to require our customers to use it.
Click to expand...
what kind of business is that, and what kind of payments exactly. as a business you have payments with providers, what is the need for them to go instant? Let say I am a retail, I honestly dont need to get my rent, phone, power and internet bill to go instantly. I am cool with a 25min delay, even a 2hr delay.
Same as for payroll, and christmass bonus checks... so, why not use crypto then?
 
@JZA any brick and mortar store will need to have instant payments go through without a hitch before letting customers go out the door with the goods. Most people will get it right, but some will be malicious, pay after unchecking IS and double spending once they're out the door. It has to work for Dash to sell it'self as instant. So I think, to make the locks that are needed, would require Evolution and smart contracts. These would do something like reject the payment if it's not instant, as requested.

It's weird, and requires some thought because there is currently no way to stop someone from paying an account in the core client. I can, however see a type of lock where when the merchant requests coins, from a unique address, the combo of address and amount can trigger a reject lock if it's not instant?? I'm sure there are other ways of resolving this problem, but it definitely needs to be resolved. However, I think it'll be after Evolution is launched :(

There was once a time, when Evan said at that first conference, that every transaction would be IS, thus allowing for growing of number of transactions to infinite numbers. They kind of backtracked on that idea, but personally, I think that's the future. IS is basically like a side chain. Each MN quorum creates a temporary side chain, locking transactions then sending the batch to the miners to consolidate into a block. With, say, each quorum = 10 MN, and the network having 4000 MNs, and each quorum able to handle 7 transactions per second, say (I don't remember how many they can do), the network as a whole could do 24000 transactions a second by dividing the work.

So I see the future being with every transaction being IS and free or the same cost as regular transactions. So much is going to change with Evolution. But it's gotta be built in steps :p

BTW, I'm totally guilty of wanting it yesterday as well :D
 
Last edited:
dashly said:
It's a ticketing business for events and we process $20M a year in credit cards online. Our margins are very low, so crypto would be a godsend for our industry. When a purchase is made tickets are generated and sent via PDF instantly. In theory, yes we could accept a transaction and process it at a later time, but the reality is it would require a ton of extra coding and adding an additional process we are not interested in and do not have time for. If crypto is to replace visa/MC it has to replace visa/mc by mimicking it's instant processing. It has to be EASY to replace.

Imagine going to a grocery store and trying to buy groceries using crypto, and you have to sit in line while the cashier is waiting for it to process. Or most online stores for that matter... Yes, some of the large companies like Amazon have these additional processes in place to handle transactions at a later date, but most small companies do not.

Someone had asked why a company would not adopt and this is a big reason. The bottom line is a crypto will NEVER be able to go mainstream and replace our current system without this in place.
Click to expand...

Right but, you said that the tickets are online, and are processed (at least to generate a pdf). So This is NOT instant. For example I make a lot of crypto transactions to my Debit card and the transfer (a bticoin debit card servie) can take up to 30 minutes - 45 min to go from my crypto to my account. I get an email confirming that my money is available on my card (I am talking bitcoin here). So yeah I can see how a ticket company would have no problem implementing Bitcoin right now with all its hassles without major interruption, tickets wont be inmediatly available but I dont see the risk unless the tickets are 'at the event site'.

For example CheapAir is a flight ticketing company and they are making money hand over fist from the Bitcoin orders on the last quarter (even with the blockchain issues).
https://news.bitcoin.com/cheapair-bitcoin-sales-soar-76-last-6-months/

I do understand the advantages of a speedy blockchain as well as IX, but I also come to realize that most Dash wallets dont support IX, and also because of the Sporks these feature could be blocked temporarily at any time. (if your business depends on it, its a very high risk to take as well).
 
JZA said:
Right but, you said that the tickets are online, and are processed (at least to generate a pdf). So This is NOT instant. For example I make a lot of crypto transactions to my Debit card and the transfer (a bticoin debit card servie) can take up to 30 minutes - 45 min to go from my crypto to my account. I get an email confirming that my money is available on my card (I am talking bitcoin here). So yeah I can see how a ticket company would have no problem implementing Bitcoin right now with all its hassles without major interruption, tickets wont be inmediatly available but I dont see the risk unless the tickets are 'at the event site'.

For example CheapAir is a flight ticketing company and they are making money hand over fist from the Bitcoin orders on the last quarter (even with the blockchain issues).
https://news.bitcoin.com/cheapair-bitcoin-sales-soar-76-last-6-months/

I do understand the advantages of a speedy blockchain as well as IX, but I also come to realize that most Dash wallets dont support IX, and also because of the Sporks these feature could be blocked temporarily at any time. (if your business depends on it, its a very high risk to take as well).
Click to expand...
Is this a joke? I am a real business owner who will not integrate crypto until this is in place... so this is the most real world example your going to get.

Yes, we could integrate with no risk, but like I said it would require a major overhaul of code. It would mean we would have to change our process entirely. Instead of treating it like a realtime transaction, like every other transaction in our system, we would have to monitor it for confirmations and finish processing at a later time. If we could enforce InstantSend, we would be able to treat it as just another payment method.

If/when this functionality becomes available, I can promise you we'll get it integrated right away.
 
No is not a joke and for the record I am playing a devils advocate but also want to know the real need, specially when I see other real businesses thriving on crypto payments.
 
For some businesses to adopt it, it's fine the way it is... but if you want MASS adoption, and I do, it has to seamlessly replace visa/mc. I'm trying to highlight the deficiencies, so hopefully a core developer will see this and put it on their roadmap.
 
Let me put this another way...

Today Dash is on the right track... more so than any other cryptocurrency, but...

If I see Bitcoin is going to adopt segregated witness which is needed for the lightning network and Dash has not addressed this issue, I would sell my masternode in a heartbeat... buy BTC and wait for the lightning network before integrating a crypto into our purchase process. Which, btw, is going to solve this problem.

I believe, that if Dash doesn't Come up with a solution to this before BTC moves in that direction, it will be at their own peril.
 
Well most businesses online dont require instant transactions, the average amazon prime costumer, still have to wait for the product to be delivered to his house, so 30 min confirmation is not a major difference. Sure if you want to refund your skype credit then I agree, you dont want to wait until the account is top-up to continue your call. But I think those type of businesses are in the minority. I had builted sites for events and hotels reservations and usually the transaction process is not inmediate, not only because the way visa work but because protection against chargebacks. I also buy movie tickets and well, this is a tricky one, since by the time the movie starts could be either 10min or 3hrs depending where I get it. (earlier that morning or 5 min before the movie start) which by that time, I would rather pay it in person.
So just want to draw the line between click and mortar and brick and mortar based businesses.
I dont want to pick a fight, but you said that you want seamless integration but complain that you would need a buch of code on your system to change the process of your orders, but in reality adopting crypto will cause this anyway.
Have you looked at a third party solution like blockpay? They support DASH and other cryptos. Wonder how those businesses deal with this situations.
 
dashly said:
If I see Bitcoin is going to adopt segregated witness which is needed for the lightning network and Dash has not addressed this issue, I would sell my masternode in a heartbeat... buy BTC and wait for the lightning network before integrating a crypto into our purchase process. Which, btw, is going to solve this problem.

I believe, that if Dash doesn't Come up with a solution to this before BTC moves in that direction, it will be at their own peril.
Click to expand...
LOL, dont hold your breath, LN is very over promised, believe me when I tell you, this stinks like vaporware. I like LN, but is still a promise, and I am a Software developer, and I know better than for software to work as advertised out of the box. Remember The DAO?
I wouldn't be so enthusiastic about jumping into Bitcoin mess that they can't even say for sure, which solution is best. I have read other 4 alternatives to LN, Segwit, and also how that didn't work out a few months back when they released it.
But please, if you think LN will solve your problems, I wont hold you back. IX is implemented right now, so you just need to activate it, but also our blockchain is quick enough to process payments even without it. I only seen other blockchain verify transactions as quickly and thats on Bitshares, were their blockchain (graphene) is very fast, and transactions get verified in 1 min I think.
 
For the record, @dashly I'm quite sure the guys know this is required. Evan knows. It's just on a back burner because other things need to be in place to get this to work properly. I mean, I know JZA is a core member, but, forgive me JZA, sometimes coders are looking down a tunnel :) But I know the business guys know what's needed, and I know Evan knows, but they all aren't ready for this. It requires Evolution and smart contracts - and especially the MN quorum processing to be set and 100% before adding more abilities. The basics need to be in place first :( I'm disappointed that this isn't fool proof yet also, but I know we're on the right track :)

I think we all suffer from wanting everything working right now, but it's actually quite complex under the hood. And everything has to go in order.

Personally, I think it'll be 2 more years (a year after Evolution Beta) before we get this part right. In the scheme of things, I still think that is fast though :)
 
@TanteStefana
Two whole years? That preposterous! Dash needs this feature now, without it the claim we have instant transactions is almost like false advertisement. Even if it were a quick, dirty fix that broke compatibility with current wallets (it will happen eventually anyway), it should be done ASAP.

For example, if I wanted to receive an InstantSend payment to address XuZ4nPJqPbgY3AbWxaRdXEz5CNMU6aM3YJ (tips accepted), the protocol could just add an "i" in front of it, IXuZ4nPJqPbgY3AbWxaRdXEz5CNMU6aM3YJ

That would mean "IX" for InstantSend, so legacy wallets won't recognize it. So, if you wanted to buy at @dashly 's , you would need to have an updated wallet. And everything is solved. He can accept payments enforcing IS, Dash users have another place to spend their money, win-win.

PS: I know that that only solves half the problem. You would still need code to detect that an IX transaction was actually made.
 
Last edited:
lynx said:
@TanteStefana
Two whole years? That preposterous! Dash needs this feature now, without it the claim we have instant transactions is almost like false advertisement. Even if it were a quick, dirty fix that broke compatibility with current wallets (it will happen eventually anyway), it should be done ASAP.

For example, if I wanted to receive an InstantSend payment to address XuZ4nPJqPbgY3AbWxaRdXEz5CNMU6aM3YJ (tips accepted), the protocol could just add an "i" in front of it, IXuZ4nPJqPbgY3AbWxaRdXEz5CNMU6aM3YJ

That would mean "IX" for InstantSend, so legacy wallets won't recognize it. So, if you wanted to buy at @dashly 's , you would need to have an updated wallet. And everything is solved. He can accept payments enforcing IS, Dash users have another place to spend their money, win-win.

PS: I know that that only solves half the problem. You would still need code to detect that an IX transaction was actually made.
Click to expand...
It doesn't work this way, there are no addresses on blockchain, they exist only virtually so to say and the only reason the exist is to help users to verify addresses - base 58 encoding guarantees "X" (because of address version byte) and exclusion of similar symbols like l (lowercase L) and I (uppercase i). On blockchain level it's only a hash (of a public key).
 
I know. But that's what I'm "feeling" from my inquiries :( I can't say for certain, only they know where they're at. It's a good idea and one of the core guys was saying something about making a special account number to make this work who was talking in slack.

I don't know if this has anything to do with it, I would hope not, honestly, but Camosoul brought this up many times, and was.... well, he's a cranky guy, LOL. And I think he irritated some core guys who just argued with him. Camo is right, but with guys, I've noticed they butt heads and nobody can back down, LOL. Anyway, all I know is that the core team KNOWS this is needed. There is a plan in their heads, on how to do it. I'm guessing smart contracts? or maybe special account numbers, but this is mostly in Evan n Andy or a few of their heads, and not ready for prime time. When Evan shared in the past, he'd get some great feed back, but he'd also get trolling, outsiders taking his ideas, etc... so the core team has since become more secretive. So for me, after bugging them about things like this, when I feel like I really got through to enough of the guys who say yes, they know it's important but "other things have to be done first" I figure it's time to trust that they understand it's got to be done, and that it will be done. When is another question.

I can see wanting it now, yesterday, last month if you have a business. I totally understand. But there is so much work to be done :( I don't think anyone will get the jump on us, because it's not as easy as it sounds.
 
UdjinM6 said:
It doesn't work this way, there are no addresses on blockchain, they exist only virtually so to say and the only reason the exist is to help users to verify addresses - base 58 encoding guarantees "X" (because of address version byte) and exclusion of similar symbols like l (lowercase L) and I (uppercase i). On blockchain level it's only a hash (of a public key).
Click to expand...
Nice to see you hear! Can you verify for us that the core team understands this problem and have it in mind to solve?
 
TanteStefana said:
Nice to see you hear! Can you verify for us that the core team understands this problem and have it in mind to solve?
Click to expand...
Can't get into everyone's head but I personally am aware of the issue and agree that there must be a way to lock it from merchant side regardless of the user intentions or some another soultion. (I replied this to camo somewhere already, can't remember where exactly, but could be in this thread too :) )
 
UdjinM6 said:
Can't get into everyone's head but I personally am aware of the issue and agree that there must be a way to lock it from merchant side regardless of the user intentions. (I replied this to camo somewhere already, can't remember where exactly, but could be in this thread too :) )
Click to expand...
Yah, so you guys understand.
I have full confidence that it will be resolved, even if I come back with the same questions again, LOL. I'm kind of forgetful that way, and it takes me a while to remember :p
 
That's reassuring @TanteStefana that the core team does understand how important this issue is. It's the reason I found Dash to begin with and moved most of my funds over from BTC. For the record, I do think the LN would solve the problem, but I am not holding my breath. With 95% activation threshold, I don't see it ever being activated. I'm certain it will be solved in the future though.

@JZA, as a software developer, I would think you would understand the difference in integrating code that processes crypto transactions in realtime vs. code that would require an overhaul of the way transactions are handled. You keep naming companies that already do this, Amazon, Hotel Bookings, etc... But what about the millions of other companies who's code currently is built for immediate processing. Yes, they could re-architect it, but the bottom line is it is a barrier to entry. The BTC core team gets this I think, but unfortunately they will not be able to move forward.

Last year we started to integrate BTC processing with Bitpay, but we ended up backing out due to the lack of realtime processing and the need to wait for confirmations.

You can argue all day long that realtime processing is not needed, but the first crypto that actually does solve this problem will end up with the largest portion of the market share in the crypto space, and you'll be sitting here wondering what the hell happened.
 
' . . . why would they accept Dash? Who is going to spend Dash at their store?'

We think in terms of 'trading-loops': if Store A accepted DASH, could we arrange Their Supplier B to also accept DASH? Then, if customers and friends and families of A and B get in on the act, you're on the verge of DASH being used as a currency.

But I popped in to say that I am now (pretty much) 'post-BTC.' Got DASH (and other major alts). Got a stash of silver for P2P trades. And got a supporter-merchant (who also holds DASH, thanks to us . . . ) who is gonna trial my notion of 'occasional merchant-trader' -- feel free to ask.
 
Simultaneously we need users. An app store game were users can earn dash in game or have a top 10 in a competition each month that win dash. This could be funded as a proposal.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top