Proposal Evaluation Committee
- Thread starter Biltong
- Start date
DashingDude
Active member
Demo,
You can't stop and idea whose time has come.
Do you want to read all of those proposals each month? I mean, ALL of them.. When they become numbered in the 100s and then in the 1000s, potentially. Even the long-and-boring ones, which are probably written by the best people for the job?
Dash is like any organization, WRT: Organizations evolve as they grow. They develop the systems that they need as the organization grows.
To respond to your points:
1) I don't know how to respond to your stated fact that you don't understand the proposal. I just don't.
2) Masternode-owners simply don't have the patience to go through all of those proposals. Yes, they have the final vote. But really, Masternode-owners are largely investors. They don't want admin. They just want return-on-investment.. Would you prefer to do the work yourself, rather than the paltry 50 dash per month that it would cost the community?
3) "If we have paid evaluators, what will be the job of the masternodes?". Please Demo, go and read the full threads. Masternodes would lose nothing whatsoever. They'd still have the final vote. But just as a CEO hires a secretary or personal assistant, this would make the job of a masternode owner require less admin.
4) "Additionaly, how the evaluators will be nominated?" Well, I'd assume it would be done in the normal way, through votes from Masternodes. Or maybe they just get appointed by Biltong. Do you have a better way?
5) "Can anyone become an evaluator?" Well, you can try. But Biltong takes no bullshit as far as I know. And the PEC is his project. So no, not just anybody can become an evaluator. They'd need to prove their credibility to him first. I know that this is supposed to be a trustless society, but we need to trust Biltong unless you disagree? If you disagree, then just try.. to sneak a bad proposal past him. He's really on it.
6) "Who will train them? Who will become the master evaluator?" That's a tougher question. It will be Biltong. If you have a better person in mind, then please introduce them. Otherwise, Biltong really is the best guy for the job.
7) "Your proposal seems highly centralized. A master evaluator to rule them all." Yip-yip Demo, but do you have a better idea? Plus, it really isn't like that. Any masternode owner would still be free to view all of the proprosals for himself and vote as usual. No freedom would be removed from anyone. Biltong would just just be sending us the abbreviated version, from a trusted and trustworthy source and Biltong seems to be offering that needed service.
Whereas Dash is a decentralized organization, which I think is great, we will still need centralized services.
Crypto has caused me to think a lot about Trust. We all need people that we can trust.
What say you?
You can't stop and idea whose time has come.
Do you want to read all of those proposals each month? I mean, ALL of them.. When they become numbered in the 100s and then in the 1000s, potentially. Even the long-and-boring ones, which are probably written by the best people for the job?
Dash is like any organization, WRT: Organizations evolve as they grow. They develop the systems that they need as the organization grows.
To respond to your points:
1) I don't know how to respond to your stated fact that you don't understand the proposal. I just don't.
2) Masternode-owners simply don't have the patience to go through all of those proposals. Yes, they have the final vote. But really, Masternode-owners are largely investors. They don't want admin. They just want return-on-investment.. Would you prefer to do the work yourself, rather than the paltry 50 dash per month that it would cost the community?
3) "If we have paid evaluators, what will be the job of the masternodes?". Please Demo, go and read the full threads. Masternodes would lose nothing whatsoever. They'd still have the final vote. But just as a CEO hires a secretary or personal assistant, this would make the job of a masternode owner require less admin.
4) "Additionaly, how the evaluators will be nominated?" Well, I'd assume it would be done in the normal way, through votes from Masternodes. Or maybe they just get appointed by Biltong. Do you have a better way?
5) "Can anyone become an evaluator?" Well, you can try. But Biltong takes no bullshit as far as I know. And the PEC is his project. So no, not just anybody can become an evaluator. They'd need to prove their credibility to him first. I know that this is supposed to be a trustless society, but we need to trust Biltong unless you disagree? If you disagree, then just try.. to sneak a bad proposal past him. He's really on it.
6) "Who will train them? Who will become the master evaluator?" That's a tougher question. It will be Biltong. If you have a better person in mind, then please introduce them. Otherwise, Biltong really is the best guy for the job.
7) "Your proposal seems highly centralized. A master evaluator to rule them all." Yip-yip Demo, but do you have a better idea? Plus, it really isn't like that. Any masternode owner would still be free to view all of the proprosals for himself and vote as usual. No freedom would be removed from anyone. Biltong would just just be sending us the abbreviated version, from a trusted and trustworthy source and Biltong seems to be offering that needed service.
Whereas Dash is a decentralized organization, which I think is great, we will still need centralized services.
Crypto has caused me to think a lot about Trust. We all need people that we can trust.
What say you?
Biltong
Active member
I've got Demo on ignore, so I don't know what he said - don't care - he's a disrupter. But 3 to 7 above is all taken care of in the organization of the PEC - I will choose the 1st 2 Evaluators from the applications received - thereafter the PEC will make their own decisions and present to MNO's for approval: Check the Master/Top Evaluator duties here: https://goo.gl/Ug3uvD
demo
Well-known member
First of all, when you summon me, do it with a @ (@demo)
I will not read/vote all proposals each month. I will read/vote 10 of them. And you will read/vote another 10 (3 of them being the same with mine). And @Biltong will read/vote another 10 (4 of them being the same with mine, and 3 of them being the same with yours). This is how ALL proposals will be read/voted.
Increase the number of voters-evaluators, and everything will be evaluated. Decrease the number of voters-evaluators (this is what @Biltong suggests), and nothing will be really evaluated.
You can increase the number of those who can vote. That way you can decide thousands of proposals. Given enough eyeballs, all proposals are shallow.
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Benglian
Member
Hi Guys,
TL;DR
I have e-Comms payments expertise and can help evaluate in this area.
--
I was reading the proposal from https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/pre-proposal-business-integration-into-retail-sector.14808/ and as I am a Payments professional within e-Commerce (I am the Head of Payments at an iGaming platform) I note a lot of gaps in their proposal actually being achieved. Maybe these are in place and just not elaborated on, or maybe not...
That led me to think that there needs to be some sort of pool of 'experts' who can evaluate and challenge proposals. Not necessarily on their actual merits, but on their actual 'technical' capability to carry out the proposal they formulated. Not to tell Masternodes that what they should vote on or how they should vote, but to add a 'stamp of approval' (or not) to a proposal to indicate that an expert in the relevant area has at least some degree of confidence that the proposers have a decent idea how to pursue their proposal and get results.
Then I saw this thread
I am active in the e-Commerce payments space. I know internet payments and the challenges that are faced when proposing an integration of a new payment method to a merchant. I hear such proposals every week from PSP's (Payment Service Providers), and rarely follow through due to business reasons (maybe we integrate 5-6 new PSPs a year). This is the reality.
I like the idea of the Proposal Evaluation Committee insofar that 'experts' (or at least people who have some expertise in that area) can evaluate proposals in their area of expertise for feasibility and report back. I understand the reluctance to have such a committee as 'gatekeepers' of proposals, but something is needed...
Maybe even there should even be allocated 'experts' (or shall we call them 'mentors'?) to whom a proposer could turn to get advice and insight on their proposal? If we assume that proposers are genuine then all advice that will help them to succeed in not only funding but delivering their proposal, would be surely welcome?
I can formulate more thoughts on this but I believe that there is a way to achieve what the OP is trying to do (genuine and improved quality proposals get voted on by Masternodes), without compromising the sprit of the DAO.
Thoughts?
TL;DR
I have e-Comms payments expertise and can help evaluate in this area.
--
I was reading the proposal from https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/pre-proposal-business-integration-into-retail-sector.14808/ and as I am a Payments professional within e-Commerce (I am the Head of Payments at an iGaming platform) I note a lot of gaps in their proposal actually being achieved. Maybe these are in place and just not elaborated on, or maybe not...
That led me to think that there needs to be some sort of pool of 'experts' who can evaluate and challenge proposals. Not necessarily on their actual merits, but on their actual 'technical' capability to carry out the proposal they formulated. Not to tell Masternodes that what they should vote on or how they should vote, but to add a 'stamp of approval' (or not) to a proposal to indicate that an expert in the relevant area has at least some degree of confidence that the proposers have a decent idea how to pursue their proposal and get results.
Then I saw this thread
I am active in the e-Commerce payments space. I know internet payments and the challenges that are faced when proposing an integration of a new payment method to a merchant. I hear such proposals every week from PSP's (Payment Service Providers), and rarely follow through due to business reasons (maybe we integrate 5-6 new PSPs a year). This is the reality.
I like the idea of the Proposal Evaluation Committee insofar that 'experts' (or at least people who have some expertise in that area) can evaluate proposals in their area of expertise for feasibility and report back. I understand the reluctance to have such a committee as 'gatekeepers' of proposals, but something is needed...
Maybe even there should even be allocated 'experts' (or shall we call them 'mentors'?) to whom a proposer could turn to get advice and insight on their proposal? If we assume that proposers are genuine then all advice that will help them to succeed in not only funding but delivering their proposal, would be surely welcome?
I can formulate more thoughts on this but I believe that there is a way to achieve what the OP is trying to do (genuine and improved quality proposals get voted on by Masternodes), without compromising the sprit of the DAO.
Thoughts?
Benglian
Member
Now that I think about the 'proposal and funding' system a little more...
I realise it is a bit (necessarily) scattergun and decentralised ;-)
And maybe there are DASH enthusiasts out there who could offer expertise and actually perform proposals but don't know what, where or how?
What I mean is, for Merchant adoption I can think of many ways that this could be approached (since this is my area of expertise). Is there room for a section with maybe 'Suggested Proposal Areas' where some 'experts' (that word again) would suggest that 'Area X' has a need for someone to tackle it, outline what is needed, and ask for proposals in that area? Effectively being able to somewhat guide a proposal roadmap, especially for people who want to help and might have something to offer but lack direction?
Just a thought...
Although when I think about it it just sounds like we need a Project Manager to liaise between proposals and stakeholders
Though maybe I should read threads more avidly as it seems some work has already been done on this at https://www.dropbox.com/s/3girz7m4evocgw3/Proposal Evaluation Committee.docx?dl=0 .
Is this still alive?
I realise it is a bit (necessarily) scattergun and decentralised ;-)
And maybe there are DASH enthusiasts out there who could offer expertise and actually perform proposals but don't know what, where or how?
What I mean is, for Merchant adoption I can think of many ways that this could be approached (since this is my area of expertise). Is there room for a section with maybe 'Suggested Proposal Areas' where some 'experts' (that word again) would suggest that 'Area X' has a need for someone to tackle it, outline what is needed, and ask for proposals in that area? Effectively being able to somewhat guide a proposal roadmap, especially for people who want to help and might have something to offer but lack direction?
Just a thought...
Although when I think about it it just sounds like we need a Project Manager to liaise between proposals and stakeholders
Though maybe I should read threads more avidly as it seems some work has already been done on this at https://www.dropbox.com/s/3girz7m4evocgw3/Proposal Evaluation Committee.docx?dl=0 .
Is this still alive?
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Syntheist
Active member
this idea came up in separate discussion: https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/dash-arts-world.14988/#post-127407
I think that for some areas it could be that budgets are set at the treasury MNO level (giving stability) and then sub DAOs work on setting up systems that are appropriate to their sector: different info is need to evaluate a festival or a point of sales system.
These DAO are then responsible in return to the MNO level and must provide appropriate transparency and feedback.
Decentralisation is vital to the success of Dash, also the passion of individuals has to harnessed and by allowing people to focus on the areas they love working in you can get just that.
As an outline idea DAOs covering each of the following areas could be established
Advertising
Arts
Core Development Team
Meet ups
Software Development
I think that for some areas it could be that budgets are set at the treasury MNO level (giving stability) and then sub DAOs work on setting up systems that are appropriate to their sector: different info is need to evaluate a festival or a point of sales system.
These DAO are then responsible in return to the MNO level and must provide appropriate transparency and feedback.
Decentralisation is vital to the success of Dash, also the passion of individuals has to harnessed and by allowing people to focus on the areas they love working in you can get just that.
As an outline idea DAOs covering each of the following areas could be established
Advertising
Arts
Core Development Team
Meet ups
Software Development
Biltong
Active member
Hi Benglian,please post any queries/suggestion re the pre-proposal on it's thread where everyone can see it. We want & need feedback from the community, Curious to see what bothers you.
As for your suggestion regarding Mentors. Excellent! So obvious, but I never thought of it - just assumed the normal community feedback will take care of it, but in real life people are busy and rely on the PEC & MNO's to do the checking. Far better to have a ready group of Mentors who we can contact to have a look at a specific proposal. Great suggestion - added it to (Phase 2) PEC Road Map Summary https://goo.gl/TD6dtw and your name will top the list
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Biltong
Active member
Oh yes - Still on track: Busy with Phase 1 and hope to start evaluations with 2 evaluators on 7 June (new superblock) and hopefully have the 1st short list out early July in time for voting.
Have a look at the Roadmap summary and if you have time at the PEC detail itself. Would love your feedback - you have the right type of experience.
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Biltong
Active member
This is already on the Roadmap - Phase 4, but added your finer detail to the detailed Road Map. Excellent - keep'em coming ! You have very good suggestions
Biltong
Active member
Hi Syntheist
The in Phase 2 of the PEC this is exactly what we will be doing - defining categories and eventually appointing suitably experienced/qualified Evaluators for each category
PEC Road Map Summary https://goo.gl/TD6dtw
Benglian
Member
I will in fact do this. Why not. If we (well, you) are proposing that some experts vet proposals then let me do this one, since its within my knowledge frame, and will give the rest of the DASH community a taste of what might be achieved by an objective summary.
A small summary, that I will not post on their proposal thread, because this is a value opinion rather than an objective summary;
The DASH community is about to gift $25,000 to a pair of young unemployed unknown guys to fund a project that they likely don't have the expertise to bring to fruition. Even if they do, and it goes as well as possible, and they hit their targets, the DASH community will see very little if any uplift from it.
I am the stakeholder and ultimate decision maker in charge of payments integrations for 40ish websites generating €25m+ a month in transactions, and I can't justify the €4000 that it would cost us to integrate DASH at this stage in the coin lifecycle. Bitcoin is very much more developed and I can't justify the €4000 for that either (well I probably could, but I have better (=more profitable) systems on the roadmap at the moment).
If I did integrate, and I used established API integrations from an established company in the space (like Cubits), it would take at least 3 months before go-live (roadmap insertion, prioritisation, integration, QA testing, troubleshooting etc.), as payments is a serious business, and it has to be fully tested before it goes live. And I wouldn't expect to get 1% of transaction uplift in the first 6 months, or even year.
The average salary in Ukraine is about $250 a month (Source) and for a developer lets go crazy and call it $3500 a month (Source). $10k for an integration is insane in this environment.
This is money down the drain whichever way you look at it...
But Kudos to the guys for their play, it seems to have all the optimists in the community fooled....
DashingDude
Active member
Biltong
Active member
Hi Benglian,
I assume you have Dash - which means you are an investor and have every right. No a duty, to post any doubts since we will all get screwed! We are decentralized after all
You have as much say and based on your experience a lot more say, than the rest of us!So I ask you please to reconsider and post your comments on the actual thread:
1) Most of the comments on these threads are from noobs who have no relevant experience, but they could still influence MNO's in a hurry - Valued comments like your's will hopefully motivate the MNO's to have a careful look at the proposal
2) Comments like yours will educate the noobs about being careful when cheering something along that they know nothing about.
3) Evaluators are human and need knowledgeable comments to guide them
4) Posting your comments here could go unnoticed and the proposal could still pass
Thank you for your efforts so far!
You are doing us all a favour.
Biltong
Active member
To echo DashingDude above. It would be great if you apply to become an Evaluator, but if you don't have the time I would like to add you to our Mentor list.
In other words: Would you mind if one of the Evaluators calls on you for advice once in a while: Basically to have a look at a specific pre-proposal to see if it’s got any problems that we need to know about?
We and Dash would be ever so grateful.
In other words: Would you mind if one of the Evaluators calls on you for advice once in a while: Basically to have a look at a specific pre-proposal to see if it’s got any problems that we need to know about?
We and Dash would be ever so grateful.
Benglian
Member
@Biltong I updated the https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/pre-proposal-business-integration-into-retail-sector.14808/ thread with some comments. How do I link to this forum post from https://www.dashcentral.org/p/Business_integration_into_retail_sector ?
Benglian
Member
Benglian
Member
Nice idea! The Evaluator Report will have a section dealing with the Originators credibility, but a simple Badge will save reading
I think the Evaluator report should be a sticky in the first post under the proposal....
Biltong
Active member
PEC Weekly Feedback
I have finally completed the PEC Evaluator Guidelines https://goo.gl/Futw1d
This took up most of my time in Phase 1 so I’m quite glad it’s behind me.
Not that it won’t be adapted/shrink/expand over time as we learn more and the community provides feedback.
However – Phase 1 of the Roadmap https://goo.gl/TD6dtw is on schedule.
Some MNO’s and community members have applied for Evaluator positions
We do need more please – backups and future expansion.
From input provided by @Benglian I have also included Mentors: Specialist that will be called on by evaluators to examine specialized Proposals for possible problems. A number of Mentors have already raised their hands – More will be recruited in Phase 2.
Test evaluations should start on schedule on or before the next Superblock: 7 June and Dash willing, we’ll have the 1st Short List ready for the MNO’s and community come early July.
I have finally completed the PEC Evaluator Guidelines https://goo.gl/Futw1d
This took up most of my time in Phase 1 so I’m quite glad it’s behind me.
Not that it won’t be adapted/shrink/expand over time as we learn more and the community provides feedback.
However – Phase 1 of the Roadmap https://goo.gl/TD6dtw is on schedule.
Some MNO’s and community members have applied for Evaluator positions
We do need more please – backups and future expansion.
From input provided by @Benglian I have also included Mentors: Specialist that will be called on by evaluators to examine specialized Proposals for possible problems. A number of Mentors have already raised their hands – More will be recruited in Phase 2.
Test evaluations should start on schedule on or before the next Superblock: 7 June and Dash willing, we’ll have the 1st Short List ready for the MNO’s and community come early July.
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