Dash Nation Consensus Discussion

[kot]

Let me share my personal opinion on the discussed topics:
1. DAO
- I guess that many people mix decentralization of the coin with decentralization of the organization
- DAO does not mean that this is a group of individuals working on whatever they want, however they want, without any control. What outcome would it bring?
- DAO means ORGANIZATION. And this means organized work of one or more teams to achieve common goals.
- Team work is much more effective than work of individuals working alone. Self-organized team is the most effective team structure.
- Every effective team is constructed out of different roles to meet business goals (user expectations). Homogeneous teams (e.g. only developers) working on complex projects are able to deliver only very limited results, with poor quality and in non-timely manner (and I say it from my experience).

Some of you say that we should not bring any shit from corporations and right after that you try to say what should the core team do, how should it be organized and who should be paid or not... WTF? Don't you see any contradiction here???

The same people say we should not have any managers and supporting functions only developers and pay developers only. May I ask from where these ideas come from? I have gained my experience playing almost every possible role in IT project and I can hardly imagine setup you are talking about in a project of Dash scale. It could work for very small startup with 2-3 people on board. Definitely not with what we have here with 10-15 projects run in parallel, multiple existing customers around the globe, even more potential customers to contact and offer Dash, systems with hundreds and thousands of users and big infrastructure to maintain, multiple vendors to work with, multiple social media platforms to update and maintain, translations and so on and so forth. How can you see all of this done by developers??? In what parallel universe is it possible?

2. Core team
- Core team is only one of the potential teams working in our DAO. E.g. the other one is the team established for Dash-World project by @GreyGhost . From time to time @alex-ru establishes different teams to deliver his small projects. So core is not the only one - I am sure I would find more of them.
- Core team could be defined as a team working on the core wallet and sub-streams around it (this is how I see it)
- There could be multiple teams in Dash. If you feel that something is done not really well by the core team, establish your own team and do it better, with the structure and work methodology you find more effective
- Like mentioned above, self-organizing teams are the most effective teams. Let the team self-organize. In my opinion there should not be any debate on how the team is organized and how it works (this works the same when you hire a vendor - you are not debating about it's structure but about deliverable) . Discussion about the goals and results would be much more appreciated.
- Just to clarify the topic of being paid. For majority of us it is 70 Dash per month or 25 Dash a month for some of the others. Be serious guys. We can earn this money in couple of hours as freelancers - every single one of us (considering skills and experience). Yet, many of us have decided to work for Dash full time or dedicate a lot of free time for the project. Reading that this is useless is sad and does not motivate for going extra mile with the project.

 

[TheDashGuy]

Let me share my personal opinion on the discussed topics:
1. DAO
- I guess that many people mixes decentralization of the coin with decentralization of the organization
- DAO does not mean that this is a group of individuals working on whatever they want, however they want, without any control. What outcome would it bring?
- DAO means ORGANIZATION. And this means organized work of one or more teams to achieve common goals.
- Team work is much more effective than work of individuals working alone. Self-organized team is the most effective team structure.
- Every effective team is constructed out of different roles to meet business goals (user expectations). Homogeneous teams (e.g. only developers) working on complex projects are able to deliver only very limited results, with poor quality and in non-timely manner (and I say it from my experience).
Some of you say that we should not bring any shit from corporations and right after that you try to say what should the core team do, how should it be organized and who should be paid or not... WTF? Don't you see any contradiction here???
The same people say we should not have any managers and supporting functions only developers and pay developers only. May I ask from where these ideas come from? I have gained my experience playing almost every possible role in IT project and I can hardly imagine setup you are talking about in a project of Dash scale. It could work for very small startup with 2-3 people on board. Definitely not with what we have here with 10-15 projects run in parallel, multiple existing customers around the globe, even more business customers to contact and offer Dash, systems with hundreds and thousands of users and big infrastructure to maintain, multiple vendors to work with, multiple social media platforms to update and maintain and so on and so forth. How can you see it done by developers? In which parallel universe is it possible?

2. Core team
- Core team is only one of the potential teams working in our DAO. E.g. the other one is the team established for Dash-World project by @GreyGhost . From time to time @alex-ru establishes different teams to deliver his small projects. So core is not the only one - I am sure I would find more of them.
- Core team could be defined as a team working on the core wallet and sub-streams around it (this is how I see it)
- There could be multiple teams in Dash. If you feel that something is done not really well by the core team, establish your own team and do it better, with the structure and work methodology you find more effective
- Like mentioned above, self-organizing teams are the most effective teams. Let the team self-organize. In my opinion there should not be any debate on how the team is organized and how it works (this works the same when you hire a vendor - you are not debating about it's structure but about deliverable) . Discussion about the goals and results would be much more appreciated.
- Just to clarify the topic of being paid. For majority of us it is 70 Dash per month or 25 Dash a month for some of the others. Be serious guys. We can earn this money in couple of hours as freelancers - every single one of us (considering skills and experience). Yet, many of us have decided to work for Dash full time or dedicate a lot of free time for the project. Reading that this is useless is sad and not motivating for going the extra mile with the project.

I can see most of this, and I respect your view on things.

Does that mean if we disagree we are wrong though? Like who gives the final say on organization of things? Who's to say one way is right and one understanding is THE understanding? How do we come to a conclusion that appeals to everyone?

Just some food for thought, not trying to argue or anything like that.

 

[flare]

Let me share my personal opinion on the discussed topics:
1. DAO
- I guess that many people mixes decentralization of the coin with decentralization of the organization
- DAO does not mean that this is a group of individuals working on whatever they want, however they want, without any control. What outcome would it bring?
- DAO means ORGANIZATION. And this means organized work of one or more teams to achieve common goals.
- Team work is much more effective than work of individuals working alone. Self-organized team is the most effective team structure.
- Every effective team is constructed out of different roles to meet business goals (user expectations). Homogeneous teams (e.g. only developers) working on complex projects are able to deliver only very limited results, with poor quality and in non-timely manner (and I say it from my experience).
Some of you say that we should not bring any shit from corporations and right after that you try to say what should the core team do, how should it be organized and who should be paid or not... WTF? Don't you see any contradiction here???
The same people say we should not have any managers and supporting functions only developers and pay developers only. May I ask from where these ideas come from? I have gained my experience playing almost every possible role in IT project and I can hardly imagine setup you are talking about in a project of Dash scale. It could work for very small startup with 2-3 people on board. Definitely not with what we have here with 10-15 projects run in parallel, multiple existing customers around the globe, even more business customers to contact and offer Dash, systems with hundreds and thousands of users and big infrastructure to maintain, multiple vendors to work with, multiple social media platforms to update and maintain and so on and so forth. How can you see it done by developers? In which parallel universe is it possible?

2. Core team
- Core team is only one of the potential teams working in our DAO. E.g. the other one is the team established for Dash-World project by @GreyGhost . From time to time @alex-ru establishes different teams to deliver his small projects. So core is not the only one - I am sure I would find more of them.
- Core team could be defined as a team working on the core wallet and sub-streams around it (this is how I see it)
- There could be multiple teams in Dash. If you feel that something is done not really well by the core team, establish your own team and do it better, with the structure and work methodology you find more effective
- Like mentioned above, self-organizing teams are the most effective teams. Let the team self-organize. In my opinion there should not be any debate on how the team is organized and how it works (this works the same when you hire a vendor - you are not debating about it's structure but about deliverable) . Discussion about the goals and results would be much more appreciated.
- Just to clarify the topic of being paid. For majority of us it is 70 Dash per month or 25 Dash a month for some of the others. Be serious guys. We can earn this money in couple of hours as freelancers - every single one of us (considering skills and experience). Yet, many of us have decided to work for Dash full time or dedicate a lot of free time for the project. Reading that this is useless is sad and not motivating for going the extra mile with the project.

Printed out for my blackboard! Thanks for this post, very well said, i share the same opinion.

 

[kot]

@TheDashGuy
It doesn't mean that you are wrong by disagreeing.
If you want to make your point, share your experience in the area and give rational arguments. Saying that something is right or wrong just because you see it right or wrong (+some shits and fucks) is not a serious discussion about serious matters.

 

[demo]

Let me share my personal opinion on the discussed topics:
1. DAO
- I guess that many people mix decentralization of the coin with decentralization of the organization
- DAO does not mean that this is a group of individuals working on whatever they want, however they want, without any control. What outcome would it bring?

This is economy my friend.
You never know what is the outcome of economy.
They started printing silver and golden coins 2500 years ago, and the outcome is nuclear fusion and space traveling.

Your point of view is like saying:
"Ok. we know how to print silver coins, so we have to remain blacksmiths, and all our economy should remain a blacksmith economy. Lets built a Structure,lets define managers that will turn everyone to a blacksmith"

And this is a stupid point of view. You shoud consider dash as an economy, and not as a digital cash.

 

[Vedran Yoweri]

Had there been a troll button next to the like button i would have been hitting it like a mf pages ago. Seriously guys, respect.

 

[demo]

Had there been a troll button next to the like button i would have been hitting it like a mf pages ago. Seriously guys, respect.

Yup...especially those Evan admirers, those Evan_is_the_best_fuck_all_the_rest, are the ubber trolls around. I wish they will just shut up their admirer chant, it is tottaly distructive for dash project. People reading those admirer chants, either disgust or laugh on dash.

 

[TheDashGuy]

Yup...especially those Evan admirers, those Evan is the best fuck all the rest, are the ubber trolls around.

We all love Evan, some of us just want a certain type of organizing and open-ness to be implemented as opposed to this walled garden thats been created (in a sense) so far.

Let's try and keep it polite today, all this getting angry at one another is turning people off from contributing to the conversation. I am on of the greatest offenders of this obviously, so how about we take that as a sign?

edit: and I think what you are getting at is even Evan can (and should be) be questioned sometimes.... he's not a god or anything as far as we know...

 

[rustycase]

there is absolutely no harm at all in creating a "Dash Nation" ... a collective of equally minded guys doing their thing the way they see fit.
I applaud that!
Just not to try to make pass it as official. Dash Nation should report to no one, but their own self-organising consensus.

.

I am newbie...and no dog in the race.
I like the concept of P2P as implemented with DASH, and am studying it, much as I am able...
As declared earlier, it was obvious I needed to review this thread again, in detail, before commenting further...
Still working on that !
Yet, MSM has brought us tidings from the manufacturing mega nation, today's date...
As such, I am in disagreement with the above quote, and circumstances, reported in MSM will show precisely why DASH Nation is detrimental to the use of DASH.
Run these terms through any news search... Article 73 of China Criminal Procedure Law, Congyi Church, Gu Yuese, and arrested in reference to economic matters...
There is at least one substantial country, (may I use the word, nation?), that will arrest a person using, or mis-using, what is perceived as organization funds.
IF, DASH is interested in participants from China, departure from intent as an exchange in a P2P fashion, by any reference to DN quite easily could place any DASH users in that countries jurisdiction within peril.
IMO, NOT a wise proposition for DASH.

There is language here within this thread which has a description known far and wide upon the internet forums...
"DASH Nation never purported to be official"
Then Do Not Use the DASH Name !
This would be described anywhere as a trademark violation, and actionable.
And in post #20... "Dash Nation is simply a way of saying... "
No, it is Not !
Language is interpreted by international standards.

na·tion
ˈnāSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: nation; plural noun: nations
a large aggregate of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.
"leading industrialized nations"

If anyone wishes to speak, in public, using their own language and definitions, perhaps they could, or should, first gain recognition by some world congress so proper inference could be obtained from the words declared.
The entire presentation fits the definition of trolling.
IMO.

Did I mention I am newbie ? With no dog in the race ?
Let me say... No, I shall say... I very much like the concept of P2P and do feel DASH seems to be an optimal solution to implement that end.

Any implementation of such language just might preclude the use of DASH by a very significant population of this planet.

Perhaps someone would direct me to where I could review 'github' and 'DGBB' ?
Sure, roles should be defined... is the answer to be found within those two ??

Best
rc

 

[demo]

We all love Evan,.

I also love Evan as a person.
I also love Evan's flatterers as persons.
But unfortunately the flatterers are often considered both disgusting and blithe by the objective readers.

 

[TroyDASH]

I also love Evan as a person.
I also love Evan's flatterers as persons.
But unfortunately the flatterers are often considered both disgusting and blithe by the objective readers.

I really don't think we should be quick to dismiss Evan especially on merit, but the discussion that is happening is worthwhile, IMO. I do acknowledge kot's point about self-organization and what it means to be a DAO. One thing that perhaps we should take a closer look at, is the relationship between the code developers, and the "visionaries", and everyone else. Right now would it be accurate to say that our code developers look to Evan as the lead visionary, and/or the lead coder at the same time? Have we ever had a scenario where the code development team disagrees with Evan on a fundamental issue? If there are people who have a different vision for the project, then really the only way to compete with the current project would be to fork the code and have a separate set of code developer (which up to this point we have not really seen attempted). If we are to build for long term sustainability though, we need to make sure we are prepared to handle what happens to our roles and where the vision comes from if Evan disappears or leaves the project for some reason. And even when he is still here, obviously he has a very important role, but what exactly *is* his appropriate role in the DAO?

 

[tungfa]

As far as @tungfa goes, he doesn't have to be a core member to do what he does, as you guys make very clear on the daily basis. He should just want to help out of the bottom of his heart for free like the rest of us.

man man, these personal attacks are so lame and are really killing any spirit in here
(and it is more than obvious that that is your main aim )
let me explain (for the sake of ...)
as i started the whole marketing department back in the day i needed an official email and be listed to communicate with publications, writers and all that
now as GG and Vandex took over the marketing, i still do a lot of other marketing and with press@ reply to any incoming requests
volentering
i think i did my part over the last 2+ years, ... volunteering and being dedicated on a daily bases and availability is the big difference. anybody can pop on here, pull up a project and done (no offence, really well done) but to be back the next day, month , year and still work on that + 20 other projects is the key difference between full-time and volunteer !
I heard before that there is some 'movement' to only pay coding developers and have all none coders unpaid and fired from Core Team.
whow, sorry but this only shows that some people have no idea how to run a project, organisation like this, sure the coders are the most important, but they only can do what they are doing (+ concentrate) when we (none coders) keep their backs free and deal with all the management, communications, organisations (in-house and outside). To turn that over to volunteer ? think about it !
Example: evan has to ask 2-3 guys parallel if they "please could do...x" help him out ? we would never get anything done
volunteering is great, we work with this since 2 years +, and are still relying full onto volunteers but you need people in positions to manage volunteers, right
volunteering has it's place in an organization as ours, same as managers (hate that word)
if we want to be professional , we need a professional team, in coding + in management/communications/....

i would really appreciate if you could leave your personal attacks out of this
you made more than clear where you stand regrading me and my position (well noted, we got it now)
lets move on and not 'taint' this and other discussions (again) with your personal grudges

 

[TheDashGuy]

I really don't think we should be quick to dismiss Evan especially on merit, but the discussion that is happening is worthwhile, IMO. I do acknowledge kot's point about self-organization and what it means to be a DAO. One thing that perhaps we should take a closer look at, is the relationship between the code developers, and the "visionaries", and everyone else. Right now would it be accurate to say that our code developers look to Evan as the lead visionary, and/or the lead coder at the same time? Have we ever had a scenario where the code development team disagrees with Evan on a fundamental issue? If there are people who have a different vision for the project, then really the only way to compete with the current project would be to fork the code and have a separate set of code developer (which up to this point we have not really seen attempted). If we are to build for long term sustainability though, we need to make sure we are prepared to handle what happens to our roles and where the vision comes from if Evan disappears or leaves the project for some reason. And even when he is still here, obviously he has a very important role, but what exactly *is* his appropriate role in the DAO?

And to expand onto this:

Were do little people like myself fit into this "DAO" structure as @kot described it? Honestly curious. What's my role as a community member wanting to help on certain projects that core or others are working on? How do I go about being "involved in a proper way", for lack of a better way to say it?

 

[tungfa]

And to expand onto this:

We're do little people like myself fit into this "DAO" structure as Kot described it? Honestly curious. What's my role as a community member wanting to help on certain projects that core or others are working on? How do I go about being "involved in a proper way", for lack of a better way to say it?

aren't you involved ?
you are designing on the webpage ! good on !

what do you mean 'proper' way ?
best is always to reach out to the 'managers' of these projects you want to be involved in , offer your help (not scream critics on them) , ask, .... and there are many open ears out there
it is that easy and many others are already involved, the only one struggling might really be you

 

[TheDashGuy]

aren't you involved ?
you are designing on the webpage ! good on !

what do you mean 'proper' way ?
best is always to reach out to the 'managers' of these projects you want to be involved in , offer your help (not scream critics on them) , ask, .... and there are many open ears out there
it is that easy and many others are already involved, the only one struggling might really be you

Ok so just to be clear, if you want me to stop using you as the subject of my points, stop making it so easy. You don't even read half the posts and just cherry pick statements to argue with. Take some time, actually read it, THEN respond thuroughly instead of throwing around the same accusation you want me to stop.

Anyways to the point, I asked WHERE DO I FIT IN THIS STRUCTURE, not how do I give my help away for free online in a forum setting like I could do on any forum, not very "DAO" like IMO.

Where is the official organization chart? The Dash DAO structure explanation? The onboarding for such a setup?

You can't just slap a title on your guys group an call it a DAO because volunteers can jump in and help. Thats just called volunteering.

So, again, where do I OFFICIALLY fit in as a contributor that is merely just a Dash user? Explain it like im 5. Like I've never read a thing about Dash and just heard about this cool "DAO" thingy @kot described.

Because in my mind, it's only a true Decentralized Autonomous Organization when someone can contribute to everything WITHOUT having to talk to anyone, until we get their, please stop mislabeling us as a DAO, we're just a community at this point.

edit: Meaning, make it official, lay it all out in a "Structure of the Dash DAO" webpage, and follow through with how it was intended/planned to work/operate. Stop throwing buzzwords around please.

 

[tungfa]

Ok so just to be clear, if you want me to stop using you as the subject of my points, stop making it so easy. You don't even read half the posts and just cherry pick statements to argue with. Take some time, actually read it, THEN respond thuroughly instead of throwing around the same accusation you want me to stop.

Anyways to the point, I asked WHERE DO I FIT IN THIS STRUCTURE, not how do I give my help away for free online in a forum setting like I could do on any forum, not very "DAO" like IMO.

Where is the official organization chart? The Dash DAO structure explanation? The onboarding for such a setup?

You can't just slap a title on your guys group an call it a DAO because volunteers can jump in and help. Thats just called volunteering.

So, again, where do I OFFICIALLY fit in as a contributor that is merely just a Dash user? Explain it like im 5. Like I've never read a thing about Dash and just heard about this cool "DAO" thingy @kot described.

Because in my mind, it's only a true Decentralized Autonomous Organization when someone can contribute to everything WITHOUT having to talk to anyone, until we get their, please stop mislabeling us as a DAO, we're just a community at this point.

edit: Meaning, make it official, lay it all out in a "Structure of the Dash DAO" webpage, and follow through with how it was intended/planned to work/operate. Stop throwing buzzwords around please.

lol
point taken, but as there are 560 pages with endless amounts of threads, yes i have to zip in and out as i do not have the time to catch up on 20-30 pages on each thread !
(hence: talking /writing = getting anything done around here)

anybody can do their own thing, start pages, contribute code on github, .... do this do that, so many possibilities , check tao, he found his place and so have many others.
(maybe in the future we should find a way to secure these new pages that they do not disappear in case the volunteer who started them leaves and takes everything with him.)
DAO or not
i personally do not care about these labels, i am all for building a structure for us (Project, Team and community), that works for us !
if that is called DAO, ODA or whatever ..... it is way too early in this project to stamp a label on that and say we are this or that !
We should let this evolve, find our own structure and path ..... DAO or Corporate or any other structure will still 'bind' us to that structure, so i suggest to let this play out for another year or so and than reevaluate where and what structure we are (if that is so important)

 

[TaoOfSatoshi]

This conversation/debate is going the right way. We all care deeply about Dash, and will do anything to see it succeed. I can see that from core and non-core members. I will make an attempt to lead the conversation down the next step in the natural progression. We have established that there is a problem with structure, or with the communication of the structure, be it a small problem or a big problem.

What are the positives you see in Dash?

- Evan's brilliance
- The core team's dedication and professionalism
- The core team's internal communications and results
- The surrounding community's inspiration and wanting to contribute
- The passion that we all have for this project
- The actual product that we are creating/promoting that has never been created before in history.

What are the negatives you see in Dash?

- The level of communication between core team and community (currently being worked on by myself and @yidakee).
- The lack of consensus (voting) required to be on the core team.
- The lack of guidance from the core team to those who may wish to join it such as @TheDashGuy (and have a case to do so).
- The lack of clearly defined roles for the core team, masternodes (investors), professional contributors, and the overall community.

I'm not saying that these problems are major or minor, that is a matter of opinion for both sides. But sooner or later, we would do well to hammer out an organizational chart that features people attaining positions based on merit, and keeping these positions based on results, and to clearly define the reponsibilities and role of the masternodes, which are a key way to gain consensus in this ecosystem. Please, let's use them as well as the other strengths we have such as our dedication and passion for our product.

Please feel free to objectively voice your opinions on how we should proceed. No one is trying to demotivate anyone, in fact having an engaged community is key to our success. This kind of thing has never been debated before, and I like where the tone is going lately.

Cheers,

Tao

 

[demo]

man man, these personal attacks are so lame and are really killing any spirit in here
(and it is more than obvious that that is your main aim )
let me explain (for the sake of ...)
as i started the whole marketing department back in the day i needed an official email and be listed to communicate with publications, writers and all that
now as GG and Vandex took over the marketing, i still do a lot of other marketing and with press@ reply to any incoming requests
volentering
i think i did my part over the last 2+ years, ... volunteering and being dedicated on a daily bases and availability is the big difference. anybody can pop on here, pull up a project and done (no offence, really well done) but to be back the next day, month , year and still work on that + 20 other projects is the key difference between full-time and volunteer !
I heard before that there is some 'movement' to only pay coding developers and have all none coders unpaid and fired from Core Team.
whow, sorry but this only shows that some people have no idea how to run a project, organisation like this, sure the coders are the most important, but they only can do what they are doing (+ concentrate) when we (none coders) keep their backs free and deal with all the management, communications, organisations (in-house and outside). To turn that over to volunteer ? think about it !
Example: evan has to ask 2-3 guys parallel if they "please could do...x" help him out ? we would never get anything done
volunteering is great, we work with this since 2 years +, and are still relying full onto volunteers but you need people in positions to manage volunteers, right
volunteering has it's place in an organization as ours, same as managers (hate that word)
if we want to be professional , we need a professional team, in coding + in management/communications/....

i would really appreciate if you could leave your personal attacks out of this
you made more than clear where you stand regrading me and my position (well noted, we got it now)
lets move on and not 'taint' this and other discussions (again) with your personal grudges

See? You also dont have the mentality of VOTING WITH NUMBERS.
Lets say you believe that managers should get all the budget of dash, and lets say I believe that coders should get it.
You vote 100% for managers and 0% for coders, I vote 100% for coders and 0% for managers.
The results is 50% for coders and 50% for managers.
This is how problems should be solved. There is not a clear "dont pay them" or a clear "yes pay them" for managers and coders. Lets talk using percentages!

Everybody has his own opinion about how much they should be paid, so lets put it in a VOTE WITH NUMBERS.

 

[tungfa]

See? You also dont have the mentality of VOTING WITH NUMBERS.
Lets say you believe that managers should get all the budget of dash, and lets say I believe that coders should get it.
You vote 100% for managers and 0% for coders, I vote 100% for coders and 0% for managers.
The results is 50% for coders and 50% for managers.
This is how problems should be solved. There is not a clear "dont pay them" or a clear "yes pay them" for managers and coders. Lets talk using percentages!

Everybody has his own opinion about how much they should be paid, so lets put it in a VOTE WITH NUMBERS.

what ?
my point was that you need coders as much as you need managers and viseversa !

voting in general , i am all for Yes / No
keep it simple
(i do not understand your Voting number approach, sorry)

 

[demo]

what ?
my point was that you need coders as much as you need managers and viseversa !

voting in general , i am all for Yes / No
keep it simple
(i do not understand your Voting number approach, sorry)

Voting with numbers is simple.

I believe that managers should get 0% of the budget, you believe they should get 4%, and Evan believes they should get 2%.

The result is the average:
(0+4+2)/3=2%.
So managers are paid the 2% of the budget.

It is very simple, I wonder how can I explain it better...