R
Can we please get Dash's Roadmap page updated with the latest estimates?
we have to wait for the Dips to come through and than we have a proper plan
so we need to wait a bit longer
R
RGXDK
Guest
Obusco
Member
We still have some work to do, and we then need to do another round of full check with all team's brains on them.
At this point, if everything fit the requirement we set to them, they will be released.
Won't say any date (as you imagine, there is still possibilities where we discover that either a missing economic incentive, a type of attack or another issue, in this case, it will need to be addressed and therefore delaying the release date).
So really as soon as possible, but only if we feel that we addressed everything. But as you can see, we are more on the end part that the start point =D
At this point, if everything fit the requirement we set to them, they will be released.
Won't say any date (as you imagine, there is still possibilities where we discover that either a missing economic incentive, a type of attack or another issue, in this case, it will need to be addressed and therefore delaying the release date).
So really as soon as possible, but only if we feel that we addressed everything. But as you can see, we are more on the end part that the start point =D
R
RGXDK
Guest
Thank you. I'd like to see Dash's DIPS though, just like BIP https://github.com/bitcoin/bips . Are they being kept hidden on purpose? (I do not have a problem with that at all)
Obusco
Member
They are, when you work on a BIP, you don't publish it at your first sentence, you first work, multiple weeks/months on those before submitting them and being assigned a number and ending up on the bips repo.
Same goes for us, we work on them, conscientiously, then we release them
Obusco
Member
So it would be better to not talk about the DIP at first hand if I follow you ?
Totally agreeing, and this process is planned from the beginning. Can you please tell me where is the first version of BIP39 ? Before it has been pushed on the BIP repository ? Where is the not-polished version of it ? The one with all the flaw on it ?
For reference, BIP39 was accepted in 7 Feb 2014, and the work began in early 2013... Are you really complaining of us that want to take some months working on them to have a good worked version ? It's only few months that I'm on some DIPs myself... Not more than a year.
Well, I don't know how much you have put into the Evolution implementation right now, but I know that me and my team wasn't delayed by the release of the DIP, as the implementation need formalizing the design for multiple reason that we could discuss.
Also before having a final design (which take form of a DIP, without it, it would take form of code as law), there was a lot of prototyping, designing, research, creation/destruction progress, improvement, discussion among other things.
And even with the DIP, many part of the implementation is already going on since a long time (as far as it concern my team), and going through the DIP allow us to improve the implementation, and implementation allowed us to improve the DIP. I have saw them at their early stage, and I can tell : It's way better now, so our choice to improve it has been a good one. THEN, the community will help us making it even better ! And that's the whole beauty on this
But yeah, indeed, it delayed the release of them, if the first version was perfect we would already published it, but it wasn't, and I probably lost 3 weeks on the roadmap, too busy improving the system on things that came out afterward when we got into the DIP process. If you want me to release a DAPI that is broken and weak, sorry I won't. You can use 5 dash to make a proposal to "Fire Alex Werner as he don't want to push a shitty version of DAPI". And, until Masternode Owner decide to vote yes to this proposal, or if my managers ask me to, I will continue to do my best improving the system, and sadly, it requires for you to wait and it might require delaying Evolution. To be fairly honest, if it need 2 year, I will take those... I will also do everything to have the resources to not have to take 2 years. Sadly, sometimes, nine women doesn't make a baby in one months.
I still want to say that this is a open protocol, since my first day working for the community/network, I have always be in the state of being open for pull request for those who want to help building it, for repo that doesn't exist, my email is on the team page so anyone can ask me to take a look or whatever.
So as far as I understand, there is two way to make Evolution going on release :
1) Do it yourself and make a pull request. As always, I read EVERY P.R being made and I will be more than happy to accept your full implementation of DAPI or Evolution.
2) The network decide to hire some people to do it. Which is why I am here, I have been commissioned by the network to work on their wish, and I'm doing so. I assumed that they want something that works and without obvious flaw as I never heard anyone asking me to do crappy and quick job, so I must admit that I didn't take that path. I'm deeply sorry if I misunderstood the need of the community, as the many flaw that we have decided to fix during previous months might have delay the release.
But, then, if you want to make a proposal for a protocol improvement, where do you set up it ?
We have DIP001 published, we inherits a lot of BIP too, so any member of the community know what is the DIP/BIP, and can work on how to improve any subject they want. We have a place for them to contribute on that, all it need is a pull-request (and if possible to first discuss with Darren in order to sort out some very basic stuff such assigning a number, but trivial things that can happen during the P.R process.
So, I don't understand, why do you want us to take it down ? It's not because Core Team works on 20+ DIP that we need to refuse other contribution, remember : It's Open-Source, everyone should be able to propose something that helps the network, and there is stuff to be improved. We won't take it down, and it's not Core fault if we have less open-source contribution on DIP... We won't have more open-source contribution by taking it down.
Also, I don't think we are here to see "who has the bigger d*ck" by comparing the number of them. Bitcoin have a lot of them, that's fantastic, but that 9 years of work.
We don't yet have that many, so sad, but in 9 years, I'm pretty sure it won't be a ghost town anymore, plus again, we inherit from BIP given the structure of the network (like `sendheaders` message as defined in BIP0130, try to connect to a node and see it being asked just after your verack), so technically we have DIP001 + BIP inherited.
Last edited:
Obusco
Member
Come on, you know that I didn't imply that. I kind-fully explained him the full detail on why we didn't published it already. I could just answer "Yes we still have work to do", instead I tried to explained him what process we are following as there could have been two different process :
1) Each iteration on documents are published (using git)
2) Something very common on these kind of document, you first prepare a good version before iterating on that, which is what we do.
As we are working simultaneously on the same file, it wasn't suited to use GIT for that early on.
Therefore, the "at your first sentence" phrase here, is typically here in order to explain that we chose the second way to do it. I understand that you would prefer me to just give him the short version "Yes", but I wanted to explained him a little bit more. And while I understand that you try to make me regret it, I won't.
Ok, let's put aside DIP for a sec'.
I've personally made multiple open-source (and not hidden) release (you can find them on NPM for instance, or live on some other places).
Can you tell me more about what type of "publishing" are you referring to here ?
We also talked more at the london conference. I've also made a full 2 page article on a french magazine explaining what we are doing, I've been in a YouTube live of Dash Force News explaining a little bit more, there is this forum, there is Reddit, there was slack and there is now discord where we also explain what are some solutions we chose.
I'm missing may be what you expect from me, could you help me understanding it, so I can help answering your concerns ?
Getting back to DIP, well, one year ago, we wasn't working on DIP and we didn't started them, we where more on the R phase. Six months ago, it was indeed R&D, but no DIP, but we started then to think about this. Remember, protocol mean multiple implementation. And a DIP allow these implementation to happen. Actually, with DIP published, you can build your own implementation of the network you know (but we will still continue working on the actual implementation obviously), but feel free to still make alternative implementation, just respect the protocol or else, obviously it won't work (but you know the drill with how to make an implementation I will suppose)
I will be as honest as possible, if it was possible to make evolution in a year, it would already exist.
If it would be possible, why many, very reputable technical people think that it's not possible and think Dash is a scam ? Do you know how many of our things is just impossible for them ? And you expect us to do it in less than a year ? Men, if you are that good, please, let set up a interview, and let's see how you can join Core team, because I definitively want you to help us working on that !
Please, don't take it wrongly, I'm not judging your capacity, as I don't know you, but are you able to make me a drop-down estimation on how many months is required to make Evolution ?
I think you may be here mixed up a little too much, DIP can exist without any Evolution iteration, Evolution can exist without any DIP or RFC (by the way, as far as I know, we don't plan for any RFC).
Are you here asking for the number of commit ? pull request ? branches ? What exactly are you refering when you talk about Evolution Alpha iteration ? We have a workable DAPI for transactional part for instance. But the Alpha is not out yet, is it an iteration ? Given the term iteration, I assume you are then asking about commit in master branch, as each PR merged became a new iteration, then... A lot of them, combining all of them (multiple repositories) and we get probably near the thousand iteration.
How many is needed, probably a thousand. Unless we make bigger iteration (less P.R but more in branch) then it can go to a couple of them. Of we decide to make very small iteration (where each line of code are being directly pushed on master in "Yolo" mode), and then it's probably tens of thousand.
So, given "this year", I understand 2017, given that we are in November (depending your timezone), you try to know if you could expect any release of DIP002 and DIP003 before December ?
Well, I'm not able to answer you, I'm not specifically assigned to DIP002 and DIP003.
So I will answer for the one I'm assigned to :
DIP020, DIP021, DIP022, DIP023, DIP024, DIP026, DIP013 and DIP014 and DIP035.
I can fairly confidently say that DIP035 and DIP030 probably won't be out this year (2017), for DIP013 and 014 : May be.
Other ones : May be early 2018, while it's not impossible at all to see them in December. But let's say 2018, so it's better over-delivering than having to ask for more time to the community.
I don't understand why you have a problem with us taking time to do it the best we want and why you are implying that we should rush them...
Are you here implying that we don't work a lot ? Because men, last week end I took was when my daughter was born. And yes, I'm talking here about a week-end... Don't ask me about a one week vacation coz' I still didn't took any.
Last edited:
Obusco
Member
These numbers mean that we have more than just DIP002 and DIP003. About if the DIP's name are still secret, well, I'm assumed that there are not, but in the London Conference talk from Chuck (
, you can see some of these DIP number associated with their names. But because Chuck have been asked to not go too much in detail on that, I won't go too much in details myself. My work is to build not to take the call on what we disclose.
About how long ago was Evolution development funded, well you have the answer in your question, if it was announced over a year ago, that mean that at that time, part of the compensation from the network was already used to compensate the announcement itself, and therefore can be view as Evolution funding right ?
That doesn't mean that 100% goes toward evolution tho, like for instance, most of the DashCore team is on 12.2 which while it solve some technical requirement needed for Evolution scalability, it is not purely Evolution's work, or is it ?
Is that answer your question ?
R
RGXDK
Guest
@Ryan Taylor How can we ever be a DAO if things can get developed for 2 years in secret? How would we know there has been any progress? I'm sorry but no one in Dash should have enough credit to go a few weeks without updating the network on what they're up to.
@Dash News Network is right, this was funded almost a year ago. What does the Dash Core team has to show in terms of technology and development after one year, 50 developers, millions in funding? Nothing (that we can see at least).
Obusco
Member
Obviously this was an hypothetical exemple, please don't remove it from the context on the sentence. Obviously, no-one here told about 2 years in secret. Actually, it wasn't a secret since this video in 2016 (And no, this video doesn't mean we were 50 dev working on evolution, it's a concept video here... ):
https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/q3-core-team-report-call.11085/#post-106144
https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/september-2016-dash-core-team-monthly-report.11143/
https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/october-2016-dash-core-team-monthly-report.11716/
https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/november-2016-dash-core-team-monthly-report.13070/
https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/december-2016-dash-core-team-monthly-report.13071/
https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/january-2017-dash-core-team-monthly-report.13210/
https://www.dash.org/forum/posts/114550/
https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/february-2017-dash-core-team-monthly-report.13857/
https://www.dash.org/forum/posts/126280/
https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/may-2017-dash-core-team-monthly-report.15405/
https://www.dash.org/forum/posts/130406/
https://www.dash.org/forum/posts/133545/
https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/june-2017-dash-core-team-monthly-report.15804/
On which you can find what progress we made. And that's only a part of them (that have been communicated, you can expend your research by yourself, there is other information at multiple places on the forum and outside the forum).
Finally, where do you see that 50 developers and millions of funding for evolution ?
As a exemple see it here in April : https://www.dashcentral.org/p/core-salaries-201704
Or see it as in today, with 23 developers, (https://www.dashcentral.org/p/core-comp-201711) that's half what you are saying.
Plus on those 23 developers, with 2 new onboarded people, we aren't still even at 10 developers on Evolution.
Total budget for Evolution will be what, may be 100k over that time ?
With 530 000€, the french government made a website... : http://www.culturecommunication.gouv.fr/
I'm not handling the numbers, may be I'm wrong, but I really don't think we are at 530k for Evolution since the beginning.
Guys, I'm happy to help answering your question, but if I'm losing my time here because you change the reality, I will just stop...
Last edited:
R
RGXDK
Guest
Since April 2017, name one significant release of all those 23 developers. A document, software, design layout...anything.
On another note, we only allocate $100k to Evolution but we sponsor MMA fighters, make conferences in 3rd world countries, make rain ponchos, fly around in Dash branded jets, sponsor debit cards that never get delivered and so on. Priorities much, masternode owners?
On another note, we only allocate $100k to Evolution but we sponsor MMA fighters, make conferences in 3rd world countries, make rain ponchos, fly around in Dash branded jets, sponsor debit cards that never get delivered and so on. Priorities much, masternode owners?
Last edited:
Obusco
Member
Will then do with one : https://www.npmjs.com/package/insight-api-dash : version 0.5.0 in April. I have upcoming 0.6.0 but sadly I got distracted by that proposal bug recently and I delay in order to add another function in the same release.
About priority on masternode owner, I might tell that I'm selfishly agree with you, but right now, with the two onboarded guys on my team, I'm confident on the timing I have mentioned above, we could have 10 developers, but I then won't be able to handle them (you know, 9 women, 1 baby...).
But that's only for my part obviously, other have some open position (and actually I have one for integration jobs, and will probably have another for additionnal QA, because whatever you seems to think, I actually still stick to my release date and need to go threw QA - if the QA reject it, we will have to delay the time to fix it.. Well normal stuff in computing industry).
R
RGXDK
Guest
Has this 0.5.0 version ever been mentioned in one of the monthly reports? I am assuming there's much more work you guys have done, work that no one knows about, and work that you get no appreciation from the MNO for your efforts
Obusco
Member
I personally informed most of our partners (ledger, exodus, jaxx..) about this release.
Just look the May report : https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/may-2017-dash-core-team-monthly-report.15405/
As far as I know, on that it's not mentioned, but see how many things are mentioned ? So probably this specific release might not go threw it. We are aware of that issue, and are trying to find a dedicated person that will carefully handle these release in a full time basis as the overwhelming number of things going on might have did that we don't mentioned it. And a person that will be dedicated to such a role will be able to help us and improve our communication with the community.
The things is : There is a lot that is public, and there is a lot that is not public. For instance, we don't mention a lot when we benchmark (or hammer is a better word at that point) our infrastructure, but it's still some work to be done. We don't mention because, that's our job, we do that because we are careful and we want to be sure everything goes fine for the objectives that we setup. So when we "spend" 1men/week on that task, we don't tell the community about it's implied.
Also, given the infrastructure part, remember in early summer ? The number of person that came using Exodus and Jaxx suddently made us worked a lot on the infrastructure, while we handle that to mitigate any problem, improve our infrastructure so that our new users can use Dash on they Jaxx, we weren't on Evolution for a couple of weeks. But that was for the best, because these are an important part of our work to provide working stuff for today (that's why, when a bug happen, I set that in top priority in my task manager, and drop everything to handle it).
But I'm really agreeing that I and my team would appreciate a little more appreciation. We dedicate our life, our days, our nights and for some our free-time on that. And it can be hurtful for some of us to see all those "You don't do shit".
demo
Well-known member
@Obusco, I dont believe a word of all what you say , as long as this "Core Developer" badge exists at your avatar. As long as you are a paid employee, you are not a free person, you are a slave. You cannot be objective, and all your words are biased.
A quote from wikipedia:
In order to tell us the truth, we have to torture you.
A quote from wikipedia:
In order to tell us the truth, we have to torture you.
R
RGXDK
Guest
Instead of a dedicated person, why don't you just automate it? If you use a project management tool to manage what you guys are doing, reports are automatic. It has a list of all projects and tasks completed, you can generate a report and edit out what you want to keep secret.
jimbursch
Well-known member
Thank you! @Obusco for your time and effort on behalf of Dash. Don't let other people wind you up too much with their pointed questions and comments. You have to ignore the attitude cruft that they insert into their comms -- it's kind of a compulsive personality
Personally I really appreciate the insight you have given us about the process and thinking that's taking place on the dev team.
Obusco
Member
We already have this on a weekly basis, type of report generated is based on weekly sprint and state the status of the tasks "done, in progress, late, blocked....".
These status are really raw and won't gave any insight to one that doesn't have the whole context.
The amount of editing that is needed take time, because it's about changing raw thing that has sense to developers and PM, to something that has sense to the community.
I could eventually do that, but everyone seems to agree that this won't be a good spending of my time.
@jimbursch Thank you a lot ! As you see, I'm still here and I'm not discouraged, it's more a sadness, but these kind of message are truly warmful, so thank you again