Dash "stock split"

[UdjinM6]

how about, i think you will like this.

đ (U+0111)

the lowercase version of the Đ used in dash
works for me

Nice find!
Instead of using mDASH etc. we can go the other way around then probably i.e. Mduff (mega-duff), Kduff (kilo-duff). Though "duff" is a bit silly for mainstream imo, same as "satoshi" tbh.. Using 8 decimal places is also not that user-friendly.. There was an idea to call some another smaller unit "dot", so maybe:
1 DASH (Đ) = 100.000.000 duffs = 1.000.000 dots (đ) ?
i.e.
1 đ = 100 duffs
1 Kđ = 100.000 duffs = 0.001 Đ
1 Mđ = 100.000.000 duffs = 1 Đ

 

[Andric Tham]

Nice find!
Instead of using mDASH etc. we can go the other way around then probably i.e. Mduff (mega-duff), Kduff (kilo-duff). Though "duff" is a bit silly for mainstream imo, same as "satoshi" tbh.. Using 8 decimal places is also not that user-friendly.. There was an idea to call some another smaller unit "dot", so maybe:
1 DASH (Đ) = 100.000.000 duffs = 1.000.000 dots (đ) ?
i.e.
1 đ = 100 duffs
1 Kđ = 100.000 duffs = 0.001 Đ
1 Mđ = 100.000.000 duffs = 1 Đ

So dots would work like dollars and duffs like cents? I like it.

 

[solarguy]

Given the somewhat volatile nature of cryptocurrencies in general, and most fiat currencies, I think the best long term solution is to have a converter in the wallet so the user can make ready comparisons with whatever fiat they are accustomed to.

And, as an example of how problematic it would be to "just move the decimal 2 or 3 places" or adjust it so one Dash is worth a dollar, what if we had done that two weeks ago, suddenly the unit would have gone down in value by more than a third in a week.

 

[Andric Tham]

Given the somewhat volatile nature of cryptocurrencies in general, and most fiat currencies, I think the best long term solution is to have a converter in the wallet so the user can make ready comparisons with whatever fiat they are accustomed to.

And, as an example of how problematic it would be to "just move the decimal 2 or 3 places" or adjust it so one Dash is worth a dollar, what if we had done that two weeks ago, suddenly the unit would have gone down in value by more than a third in a week.

I think this was an issue that was already brought up in this thread. Nobody is suggesting that the cryptoasset DASH gets meddled with. We’ve all agreed it’s a bad idea for miners and traders.

What we’re talking about is DASH the cryptocurrency (the one that is actually spent by consumers and accepted by merchants), and decoupling it from the cryptoasset. It’s the extent to which the decoupling is implemented which is a cause for concern.

As previously mentioned, converters wouldn’t work as well as you’d still be abstracting the true value of the cryptocurrency from the spender or the merchant. That creates psychological and epistemological biases toward fiat, and against crypto, as a store of value and medium of exchange.

While the cryptocurrency’s value still needs to be pegged to an underlying cryptoasset, the interface doesn’t have to be. Now, we aren't talking about the digital interface (wallet UI) but the more general, abstract notion of a cryptocurrency and how it’s presented to its users (merchants and consumers != traders and miners), such as its currency name, denominations, symbol.

 

[solarguy]

Splitting the cryptocurrency Dash from the cryptoasset Dash sounds a lot like meddling with Dash, which you are suggesting.

Once you split them, which sounds terrifying already, where does the new interface for the now separate cryptocurrency derive its value, since it will be intentionally not derived from the underlying cryptoasset?

 

[TanteStefana]

The way I see it, decoupling DASH the cryptoasset from DASH the cryptocurrency is a crucial decision that will determine whether it is usable as digital cash in regular consumer-merchant transactions, or not.

If DASH does not attempt to solve this problem, a fork or an alternative currency might come along and do so, suitably threatening our place in the top 10 and perhaps even upending Bitcoin as the “default” cryptocurrency.

In my opinion, this is what I think will end up happening. Basically, the solution I see as making a coin usable is to create a sup-coin, backed by Dash that has it's value kept at the same level. Not against some fiat amount, but rather against a combination of commodities. Perhaps, Oil, Milk, Wheat, Rice, etc... experts in the field can come up with a formula that shows real base values. This new sub-coin would have a unit value based on trade all over the world and would be pegged to it. Whatever the formula is, the Masternodes would quarry the values, input them to the formula and set the # of sub coins available against the backing of Dash. So while Dash coins are constant (16-18 million available eventually) the sub coin would be flexible so that a user might see his 10 sub Dash balance go from 10 to 10.02111111 to 9.9999912 etc... in a matter of minutes or however long. However, the world value of a sub-Dash for purchasing power will always remain the same.

In all honesty, this is where I'll bet it will go. It would be superior to fiat, as it would be highly stable and understandable. Stores wouldn't have to constantly re-price everything due to inflation, but rather could make long term deals with suppliers and know what to expect. This would ultimately save the common people a LOT of money in the long term.

There will be a lot of work in the future to implement all of this, but in the mean time, I think setting your wallet to dots or duffs or read out in fiat is how it'll have to go down short term

Long term, yes, if crypto is to supplant fiat some day, it has to have a simple reliable pricing system, and I do believe it'll go something like this.

 

[Andric Tham]

Splitting the cryptocurrency Dash from the cryptoasset Dash sounds a lot like meddling with Dash, which you are suggesting.

Once you split them, which sounds terrifying already, where does the new interface for the now separate cryptocurrency derive its value, since it will be intentionally not derived from the underlying cryptoasset?

Let me clarify my thoughts.

Decoupling DASH as a cryptocurrency (which is backed by its corresponding cryptoasset) doesn’t have to result in meddling with DASH so to speak, as one could simply create two front-facing interfaces from a unified back-end, in web development parlance. At least that’s a compromise.

 

[solarguy]

Let me clarify my thoughts.

Decoupling DASH as a cryptocurrency (which is backed by its corresponding cryptoasset) doesn’t have to result in meddling with DASH so to speak, as one could simply create two front-facing interfaces from a unified back-end, in web development parlance. At least that’s a compromise.

And where does the newly decoupled cryptocurrency Dash on the new front end determine it's value so it looks and acts more like a dollar without all the disturbing zeros and decimals and long string of trailing numbers?

 

[Andric Tham]

And where does the newly decoupled cryptocurrency Dash on the new front end determine it's value so it looks and acts more like a dollar without all the disturbing zeros and decimals and long string of trailing numbers?

As others have suggested, a smaller denomination of DASH (Dots), with two decimal places to indicate the lowest denomination.

 

[John.Huisamen]

If you’re a speculator/investor/techie/cryptoanarchist, that is.

I count myself among the techies, but even I don't want to be paying 0.0023567 DASH for a cup of coffee. Showing its fiat value to me is like adding insult to injury. That’s what the cryptomasochists want for us, no?

At the end of the day, if this problem isn't solved, we’re still relying on fiat, not replacing it altogether. That's because, with a limited supply of coins, the value will continue to rise. Eventually, we’ll be dealing with 6, or 7 decimal places just to come to an equivalent of today’s dollar or euro or pound.

I agree with you, if Dash wants to fulfill its goal of mass adoption we can't be spending 0.002 Dash on a cup of coffee. Furthermore, (I assume) these are US prices. For people like me from Africa, you can add one or two more zeros into the price. It will simply not make sense to the human psyche to be paying Dash 0.0000231 for a cup of coffee. ️ I am all for the idea of having different denominations of Dash instead of doing a Stock Split.

 

[solarguy]

As others have suggested, a smaller denomination of DASH (Dots), with two decimal places to indicate the lowest denomination.

You're telling me the result. You're not telling me how that result is generated or calculated. What is it based on? How often is it updated?


And more specifically, how does this keep the currency Dash related to a familiar unit like the dollar?

 

[Friend]

1 DASH (Đ) = 1.000.000 dots (đ).
dot (đ) as a base currency in dash system?

So, as for now, probably kilodots (kđ) ? would be most user friendly denomination.
But @Andric Tham , in your opinion, can we skip that and go directly to dots (đ), or would it be to confusing and better stick to kdots (kđ)?
How do you see this transition, taking place in practice? Where to start (exchanges maybe)?
(Similar ideas long time ago: https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/dash-to-two-decimal-places.6964/#post-74059)

No need to change the code, but a lot of work for marketers and others in Core Team, to advertise this, as official denomination, used in dash system.
IMO, its important to prepare this transition as soon as possible, before early majority, stage of development starts.

================

adjust it so one Dash is worth a dollar

Where did you get this idea? Not many people here, besides you, suggest this.

You're telling me the result. You're not telling me how that result is generated or calculated. What is it based on? How often is it updated?

And more specifically, how does this keep the currency Dash related to a familiar unit like the dollar?

Could you clarify what you mean exactly? Sorry, if my answers diverge with your questions.

• "You're not telling me how that result is generated or calculated. What is it based on?"

Result is based on knowledge of human psychology and UX tests: people are much more familiar and easy going with i.e. 1000 dots than 0.001 dash in daily use.

After this (12 sec):

and this (17 sec):

..I got even more confidence that it is good, to change base denomination, and minimize decimals (for average people in daily use).

• "How often is it updated?"

1. We would, for sure, update only once, if we go directly to dots (đ).
I.e 1000000 dots (đ) = 209$ ; 1$ = 4784 dots (đ) ; 1 dot (đ) = 0.0002$

2. kdots (kđ) is better for now and for future x10 growth.
I.e 1000 kdots (kđ) = 209$ ; 1$ = 4.78 kdots (kđ) ; 1 kdot (kđ) = 0.2$

• "how does this keep the currency Dash related to a familiar unit like the dollar?"

It brings value of one base currency unit closer to peoples comfort zone: http://imgur.com/a/NJh9R , where most people operate, and where value of most national currencies are.

1 base currency unit (of dash system) does not have to be worth exactly 1 dollar.
========================
Idea, of converter built in wallet, is good for beginning.
But to bring dash to world currency, its base unit, ie. dot (đ), has to be easily computed by human beings on its own (without more than 2 decimal places).

 

[Friend]

the sub coin would be flexible so that a user might see his 10 sub Dash balance go from 10 to 10.02111111 to 9.9999912 etc... in a matter of minutes or however long. However, the world value of a sub-Dash for purchasing power will always remain the same.

In all honesty, this is where I'll bet it will go. It would be superior to fiat, as it would be highly stable and understandable. Stores wouldn't have to constantly re-price everything due to inflation, but rather could make long term deals with suppliers and know what to expect.

I don't see this. Can you explain?
How can you make "purchasing power remain the same"?
Stores always have to re-price things due to price rise (higher demand), and drop (i.e. in electronics caused by fast development).

IMO, general stability (as in most national currencies), will come with bigger market capacity.

 

[Matt Robertson]

Bitcoin already tried this with great failure. Our one great advantage is to maybe use the dash budget to vote in a standard. And then even monetarily incentivize wallets to change their view. Althought, I think a longer term solution is build in a stable coin into the system, something similar to Steem dollar. System backed and collateralized, market based stable coin. This will let us deliver a system that anyone can use. The units stay reasonable and the number units float based on the underlying price of DASH. DD a Dash Dollar

 

[solarguy]

↑
"adjust it so one Dash is worth a dollar"

Friend said, "Where did you get this idea? Not many people here, besides you, suggest this."

The whole idea of a "stock split" is to reduce the value of Dash to more familiar territory, "like" a dollar. Others on the most recent reddit dashpay thread put this forward as "more familiar" . I don't want to change the denomination of Dash at all. You are the one suggesting we change the value of one Dash to a much smaller amount. How much smaller do you want it? I don't know how much smaller you want it.

↑
You're telling me the result. You're not telling me how that result is generated or calculated. What is it based on? How often is it updated?

And more specifically, how does this keep the currency Dash related to a familiar unit like the dollar?

Friend said, "Could you clarify what you mean exactly? Sorry, if my answers diverge with your questions.



OK Friend, How much would you split or change the value of Dash, exactly? Answer this question, specifically. I want a number.

 

[Matt Robertson]

That probably wasn't clear. Defintiely not adjusting DASH to = 1, but creating a new token that is totally in the DASH blockchain that is pegged to the 1 dollar. I was imagigning we call this NEW token a DASH Dollar, or DD ..... So, in the steem system you have steem tokens and steem dollars. So, they are two different things. DASH doesnt' change, we build a new stable token into the DASH ecosystem that users can move into and outof DASH into Dash Dollars seemlessly on the DASH blockchain. Then merchants can price things in DD, and users can store their funds in DD if they so choose. this gives them a stable unit of account. Take a look at steem and steem dollars to see what I mean.

 

[solarguy]

That probably wasn't clear. Defintiely not adjusting DASH to = 1, but creating a new token that is totally in the DASH blockchain that is pegged to the 1 dollar. I was imagigning we call this NEW token a DASH Dollar, or DD ..... So, in the steem system you have steem tokens and steem dollars. So, they are two different things. DASH doesnt' change, we build a new stable token into the DASH ecosystem that users can move into and outof DASH into Dash Dollars seemlessly on the DASH blockchain. Then merchants can price things in DD, and users can store their funds in DD if they so choose. this gives them a stable unit of account. Take a look at steem and steem dollars to see what I mean.

So if I owned Dash, then I would automatically own x Dash Dollars as well? Or I could convert my Dash frictionlessly to Dash Dollars?

Finest regards,

 

[Friend]

The whole idea of a "stock split" is to reduce the value of Dash to more familiar territory, "like" a dollar

Yes, but dollar is only example here. Generaly it is all about ease of use. National currencies are generally designed to serve this purpose. You don't have to small, and to big notes/coins in circulation.
Analogically our, so far, base denomination - dash is too expensive to be easy in everyday use (without 3-5 decimal places)

I don't want to change the denomination of Dash at all.

Neither it is my desire. But you see this "0.00319 for coffee" problem?
What is your idea to deal with it?

OK Friend, How much would you split or change the value of Dash, exactly? Answer this question, specifically. I want a number.

• As for this moment best (in terms o UX), base denomination, should be mDash - kdot (kđ)

• I'm open to discus uDash - dot (đ), because dash is more deflationary than usual crypto( because of MN), and in two years, we may end up in the same place as today. (2 years ago dash was 2$)

Good solution in my opinion:

The way I see it, the community only needs to agree on what the smallest denomination of the currency is called (like Ether’s wei or Bitcoin’s satoshi), and make that the default interface on any merchant or consumer facing application. Give it a corresponding symbol ($, ¥, etc.) and make sure it’s a Unicode symbol so it can be easily encoded and printed anywhere.

đ (U+0111) for 1 dot = 0.000001 Dash
================================

Wise words on the other part of this problem:

As previously mentioned, converters wouldn’t work as well as you’d still be abstracting the true value of the cryptocurrency from the spender or the merchant. That creates psychological and epistemological biases toward fiat, and against crypto, as a store of value and medium of exchange.

While the cryptocurrency’s value still needs to be pegged to an underlying cryptoasset, the interface doesn’t have to be. Now, we aren't talking about the digital interface (wallet UI) but the more general, abstract notion of a cryptocurrency and how it’s presented to its users (merchants and consumers != traders and miners), such as its currency name, denominations, symbol.

(I can quote this guy all day

Would be perfect to resolve this "0.00127" issue (Want to believe that Core Team have it on mind), before, or with first release of Evolution wallet.

 

[solarguy]

Friend said, "Analogically our, so far, base denomination - dash is too expensive to be easy in everyday use (without 3-5 decimal places)

Neither it is my desire. But you see this "0.00319 for coffee" problem?
What is your idea to deal with it?"

Users could have a choice of how they want it displayed in the wallet, along with a dollar value. If we want to publicize mdots or mdash, that's fine as a user option in the wallet. But don't monkey with the Dash itself. I still want to see the user experience study to show that it really does help adoption and really doesn't hurt our cryptonerd fans who brought us this far.

 

[Friend]

Users could have a choice of how they want it displayed in the wallet, along with a dollar value. If we want to publicize mdots or mdash, that's fine as a user option in the wallet.

Have you carefully read what @Andric Tham wrote on this topic?
Ease of use requires to establish some good standard denomination.
I can change denoimnation to mDash now in my wallet or in BTC wallet. But it just doesn'twork on big adoption scale (i.e. bitcoin failure in this topic).

But don't monkey with the Dash itself.

You could write, why do you believe it is so bad idea.
Don't you think that on the level of "brain storm" discussion, all possibilities should be taken into consideration?

I still want to see the user experience study to show that it really does help adoption and really doesn't hurt our cryptonerd fans who brought us this far.

Could you give an hipotethical example way, of hurting cryptonerd fans by this change?
(Someone may argue, that dash, by its existence, is hurting cryptonerd fans of Bitcoin, who brought all of us this far.)

As for source material, @Andric Tham

The underlying assumption here is that humans parse whole numbers more easily than we do floating point numbers. This can be verified with an ethnographic research study, should the core team doubt this nugget of “common sense”.

Could you provide us some links, and scientific literature, on this, please?