Dash "stock split"

Friend wrote, "Could you give an hipotethical example way, of hurting cryptonerd fans by this change?"

One of the main advantages of the better cryptocurrencies is that the supply of total coins is largely immutable. If you suddenly make it appear as though we increased the supply of Dash by 100 or 1,000, that makes them nervous. Further, making fundamental changes to the code base, for "appearances" could be perceived as risky. Some perceive Dash to be valuable because one unit is worth ~200 USD. If it's suddenly portrayed as worth $2.00, that may be a hindrance.

You can consider any plan you want. Brainstorming is strongly encouraged. But I suggested that if you want to make substantive changes that have any chance of being approved by the masternodes, you need evidence that, moving the decimal place and portraying Dash in a very different way, will actually speed adoption with newbies, and further, that making this change will not discourage/annoy/repel the people who have brought Dash this far already.

These points have been brought up before. Have you not read the entire thread?
 
solarguy said:
Friend wrote, "Could you give an hipotethical example way, of hurting cryptonerd fans by this change?"

One of the main advantages of the better cryptocurrencies is that the supply of total coins is largely immutable. If you suddenly make it appear as though we increased the supply of Dash by 100 or 1,000, that makes them nervous. Further, making fundamental changes to the code base, for "appearances" could be perceived as risky. Some perceive Dash to be valuable because one unit is worth ~200 USD. If it's suddenly portrayed as worth $2.00, that may be a hindrance.
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I don’t think the discussion here is about increasing the supply of the cryptoasset DASH. I agree that having a deflationary value with a high value per coin is the way to go when appearing to cryptonerds who invest in the space.

It seems the approaches that we are all converging toward in this discussion are to work towards a “stablecoin” (a la Tether or Steem Dollar), or a smaller default denomination for DASH when it is presented to end-users such as merchants and consumers (not cryptonerds). These are two potential possibilities.

The former would require a lot of thinking and collaboration between disciplines, and might not be something DASH wants to tackle right now. It could mean working with a partner to build a stablecoin based on the DASH network.

The latter would require a strong aligned effort between product design and marketing to agree on the one true denomination for end-users and merchants. This might be the best solution going forward.
 
Friend said:
As for source material, @Andric Tham

Could you provide us some links, and scientific literature, on this, please?
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Yes.

This is an oft-cited paper about information processing of numbers:

The Magical Number Seven, Plus or Minus Two: Some Limits on Our Capacity for Processing Information by George A. Miller

Additionally, these two books (in the context of education and games) further expand on Miller’s information processing theories by relating them to the idea of “cognitive load”, which is the amount of information processing required of someone, where a higher load results in a greater difficulty of completing a task with accuracy. Cognitive load is also a theory used by usability professionals working in the field of user experience design.

Design and Development of Training Games

21st Century Learning for 21st Century Skills

To read more about how the limits of information processing in humans affect usability (accuracy and efficiency), read this article by Kathryn Whitenton about cognitive load.

For cryptonerds and programmers, cognitive load is basically the “working memory” of the human mind, like RAM, if you will. Humans have computational abilities, just like computers, but they are limited compared to what computers are capable of.

As a result, offloading these computations to the underlying systems (in this case, the DASH network, the DASH wallet UI, and the DASH currency format) is not only more efficient and accurate, but also more likely to result in users who find it “easy” to use.

Why should we care if DASH is easy to use?

As we know, tasks that are difficult are usually avoided, unless there is sufficient motivation.

To account for most people’s lack of sufficient motivation to switch payment methods (switching always incurs a decision making cost most humans would rather avoid!), DASH should lower its own barriers of adoption by making it as easy (or easier) to use than fiat money. The currency format is very much a part of that.

To understand more about behavioral change, one can consult BJ Fogg’s Behavior Model.

As of now, only traders who are interested in making money (high motivation) or cryptonerds (high motivation and high ability) are using DASH. For DASH to achieve greater adoption, it must lower the ability barrier, so that users with low technical ability and lower motivation levels to tolerate the higher levels of cognitive load associated with processing decimal places will have sufficient reason to switch to it.
 
A price of $1000 per unit is a MASSIVE barrier to adoption. I can't tell you how many "laypersons" I speak to on a monthly basis who don't want to get into bitcoin because "it costs $13,000" and they can't afford it. I'm sorry crypto-world, that's just how people think. How many people are getting into Ripple "Because it's only $2" or Cardano because "It's under a dollar".
 
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feedbands said:
A price of $1000 per unit is a MASSIVE barrier to adoption. I can't tell you how many "laypersons" I speak to on a monthly basis who don't want to get into bitcoin because "it costs $13,000" and they can't afford it
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I 100% agree. I bring people into this space. I have watched numerous people I personally know gravitate to "cheap" coins. "High prices" are an absolutely MASSIVE barrier to new interest. Dash has grown very well, but no doubt would have done MUCH better as a "cheaper" coin.

Dash Core Ceo Ryan Taylor gave me this below response via email dated 28/07/2017:

I completely agree with you and we’ve considered the possibility many times. The issue is unfortunately a technical one, and we simply have no way of knowing what third party systems would break due to the change. This issue makes it nearly impossible to make the change. There are several things we can do to mitigate the user issues without taking such risks. First, all consumer or merchant wallets can display the fiat amounts alongside. Second, we can start using mDash as the standard unit.
We have agreed to look at how the wallet files, various protocols, and user interfaces could be migrated to a new unit safely in the future, but it’s just not a priority relative to Evolution. The more I dig into the issues, the more complexities I encounter, and it seems best to set the issue aside for now.
There is a reason no other coin has succeeded in making this transition… and an area I’d rather be a fast follower than a leader.

Ryan Taylor
CEO - Dash Core Team
 
If it lower the transaction fee, I strongly agree.

other than that there's no point.


Dash has price stability built in. So in the future people may rely on the

price of dash as pricing their services, so this kind of change

should not be taken lightly. We might need Amanda's dash detailed again

to announce these important changes.
 
feedbands said:
A price of $1000 per unit is a MASSIVE barrier to adoption. I can't tell you how many "laypersons" I speak to on a monthly basis who don't want to get into bitcoin because "it costs $13,000" and they can't afford it. I'm sorry crypto-world, that's just how people think. How many people are getting into Ripple "Because it's only $2" or Cardano because "It's under a dollar".
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The unit is the duff, and it costs less than a penny.

This whole conversation is based on being out of touch with reality.

People will use DASH transparently, scaling against their local fiat currency. The amount of DASH shown will be in parentheses for comparison's sake.

No store is going to go around re-pricing everything in DASH or Bitcoin, or anything else.

All you need is a wallet that has a built-in exchange rate, and shows you the DASH/FIAT equivalency at the moment. Many may not even want to see that... They'll blindly be paying in FIAT values, not even looking at the .02514 or whatever.

It shows just how swollen the heads of cryptotards are, that they can't figure this out, and are trying to come up with a solution to a problem that requires them to be oh so much more important than they really are before it would be a concern... And even then, by that point in time, there would be need to worry, because if DASH, or any other crypto had reached a level of adoption so extreme that 0.13456326 was actually seen on a price tag somewhere, it'd be so deeply entrenched that people would already be used to seeing it and already have adapted...

This conversation imagines adopting taking a path that makes no sensed and clearly won't be the path to adoption. But, what do you expect from reality-divorced cryptotards?

The decimal point is imaginary anyway... duffs are duffs no matter where you put the dot.

The only potential issue I see is in granularity. .00000001 may not be small enough if value deflates far enough. It's clear nobody actually expected crypoto to get anywhere. But, now that it has, we see a resolution problem due to a lack of forethought.

We don't need fewer decimal points, we need more. The average joe is never going to see them anyway...
 
$1000 price isn't the issue. Price went to $1800 in korea at one point and

people were kept buying hard. Looking at current trend people are simply looking for low transaction fees.

Its kind of annoying to see random crypto and dash copy gain 1000% over night and pass dash in market cap.

But they help me not to short dash.



We just stay cool and become what we are as community as we met for the idea of decentralized/ anonymous/ effortless/ stable currency.
 
camosoul said:
The unit is the duff, and it costs less than a penny.

This whole conversation is based on being out of touch with reality.

People will use DASH transparently, scaling against their local fiat currency. The amount of DASH shown will be in parentheses for comparison's sake.

No store is going to go around re-pricing everything in DASH or Bitcoin, or anything else.

All you need is a wallet that has a built-in exchange rate, and shows you the DASH/FIAT equivalency at the moment. Many may not even want to see that... They'll blindly be paying in FIAT values, not even looking at the .02514 or whatever.

It shows just how swollen the heads of cryptotards are, that they can't figure this out, and are trying to come up with a solution to a problem that requires them to be oh so much more important than they really are before it would be a concern... And even then, by that point in time, there would be need to worry, because if DASH, or any other crypto had reached a level of adoption so extreme that 0.13456326 was actually seen on a price tag somewhere, it'd be so deeply entrenched that people would already be used to seeing it and already have adapted...

This conversation imagines adopting taking a path that makes no sensed and clearly won't be the path to adoption. But, what do you expect from reality-divorced cryptotards?

The decimal point is imaginary anyway... duffs are duffs no matter where you put the dot.

The only potential issue I see is in granularity. .00000001 may not be small enough if value deflates far enough. It's clear nobody actually expected crypoto to get anywhere. But, now that it has, we see a resolution problem due to a lack of forethought.

We don't need fewer decimal points, we need more. The average joe is never going to see them anyway...
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You would be right if the value of cryptos today was primarily derived from their utility. Which is ultimately what needs to happen, but isn't the case. Much of the value of cryptocurrencies today are driven by speculators, many of whom don't know or care about the fundamentals as much as making fast money, which lends itself to coins with huge supplies outperforming coins with lesser supplies because they appear cheaper. Is this really a good reason to split the coin, I don't know. If we were to do it over again I would have opted to have had the decimal point moved from the beginning.
 
Critical Input said:
I 100% agree. I bring people into this space. I have watched numerous people I personally know gravitate to "cheap" coins. "High prices" are an absolutely MASSIVE barrier to new interest. Dash has grown very well, but no doubt would have done MUCH better as a "cheaper" coin.
Click to expand...

People still buy bitcoin, they just buy what they can afford. Many people have thrown a couple of hundred dollars at BTC and will do the same for dash.
 
camosoul said:
People will use DASH transparently, scaling against their local fiat currency.
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So in your opinion Dash is not going to be Cash, just payment processor or payment platform?
camosoul said:
All you need is a wallet that has a built-in exchange rate, and shows you the DASH/FIAT equivalency at the moment. Many may not even want to see that... They'll blindly be paying in FIAT values, not even looking at the .02514 or whatever.
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Answer:
Andric Tham said:
At the end of the day, if this problem isn't solved, we’re still relying on fiat, not replacing it altogether. That's because, with a limited supply of coins, the value will continue to rise. Eventually, we’ll be dealing with 6, or 7 decimal places just to come to an equivalent of today’s dollar or euro or pound.
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Andric Tham said:
As previously mentioned, converters wouldn’t work as well as you’d still be abstracting the true value of the cryptocurrency from the spender or the merchant. That creates psychological and epistemological biases toward fiat, and against crypto, as a store of value and medium of exchange.
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No offense, but in this case, I would rather believe person who has good experience and scientific background in field of UX ( https://andrictham.com ), than tech guys who "have no problem with decimals" and project their believes to the rest of society.
 
Would this not be seen as a huge crash to the members of the cryptosphere we are targeting? After all these people don't understand coin supply versus price.
The youtube experts will be shouting from the rooftops about DASH's tremendous instability and price crash to their millions of viewers.

The banks are jumping on the head of digital currency now anyway, we have entered into a battle between government and bank regulation that may very well see these centralised projects lose their footing.
This hype rush may very well be over for a long time, our focus should be on places to spend rather than denomination.
If DASH is spendable globally directly as DASH not through fiat gateways we will see adoption of DASH that will stick and be unbreakable.

Quality over quantity
 
BIG no to any kind of split! I'm with Camsoul on this one.... If people are to ignorant, stupid or lazy to learn something other then a 2 decimal system... They deserve to be poor and destitute. Period. Gold and Silver worked awesome for centuries.... There were no 2 decimal points.

Stock Splits/quantitative easing/ print money is what has made the mess we are in today.

I and other MN most certainly would be voting no on this. People, Dash and digital currencies are not here to redistribute the wealth of the world... It's meant to be a fair medium of exchange and a store of value....and a unit of account that is not controlled by governments or central banks .. Not to fix the social problems of the world. Jesus! If your friends are too stupid to comprehend nothing more then 2 decimals or are buying currency because it's price per unit is cheaper and can't wrap their mind around supply ... You should immediately dump them as friends... Just saying
 
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A good user interface on a wallet can display the Dash in 2 decimals, we just need to pick a name for this denomination. Perceived problem solved.

I am unconvinced a "stock split" at the blockchain protocol level would be all it's cracked up to be, i.e. actual improved user adoption. Show me a real study that actually relates to Dash cryptocurrency, I will listen again.

Plus, the Core team has made it clear that this would break things and they don't want to do it.

I swear, this comes up every month.
 
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