Thoughts on Trust and Reversible Transactions.

[camosoul]

I proffer the following notion:

The concept of the chargeback, advertised as security to the consumer, is actually where the danger comes from.

It eliminates trust. The vendor could be shady and disreputable, but you can still take the risk because chargeback.

On the surface, that looks like a good thing. Kind like automatic transmissions in cars. But it's actually a bad thing.

It keeps shady vendors alive. Because there's no reason to avoid them. It craps on the natural order of things and the laws of economics.

If you had to trust someone, in an irreversible transaction, you'd not do business with those shady fellows. They'd go out of business. There'd be no need for the retractable payment.

It becomes a self-fulfilling paradox, and not a good one.

Now throw in your identity along with that...

Cryptocurrency should not be considering the idea of a retractable payment because it generates the very problem that it pretends to solve.

 

[demo]

Reversilbe transactions are necessary because the rollack preserves the trust in dash in case of disaster. You have to preserve trust at all cost, because money without trust is nothing. In the bad case where a theft occurs and the trust in dash is lost, the only way to recover the trust is to revert the transactions.

Reversible transactions can also be used as a form of taxation. which is also necessary for a nation to work properly.

The key point is who decides the rollback of the transactions. The rollback should be decided by all dash community persons with the rule one_person--one_vote and not by the core team or by the masternode owners.

 

[Solarminer]

Reversilbe transactions are necessary because the rollack preserves the trust in dash in case of disaster. You have to preserve trust at all cost, because money without trust is nothing. In the bad case where a theft occurs and the trust in dash is lost, the only way to recover the trust is to revert the transactions.

Reversible transactions can also be used as a form of taxation. which is also necessary for a nation to work properly.

The key point is who decides the rollback of the transactions. The rollback should be decided by all dash community persons with the rule one_person--one_vote and not by the core team or by the masternode owners.

I don't understand why you think Dash can have reversible transactions. This was the fundamental quality of Bitcoin that it could never be reversed. Trustless, irreversible transactions is the biggest benefit to crypto. The blockchain is not intended to go backwards and just reverse transactions. It won't happen. And if you did start rejecting transactions the fundamental quality called fungibilty is lost. Ok, it might happen with Ethereum for the DAO....but we will see that go down the tubes pretty soon because of it.

If you need to deal with a shady merchant, use an escrow service. The credit card company is basically doing this now but charging 2.9% of every transaction to do it. Do you like paying 2.9% of everything to Mr Chase?

 

[camosoul]

Brats and scammers will always want this feature. Is that a demographic to which we should cater?

 

[TanteStefana]

Dash, like Bitcoin, will never have reversible transactions. It doesn't work that way, it's not even possible. Ethereum has a tiny network compared to Dash, and it's pretty centralized.

However, Last winter when I sat down with my sister to talk about cryptocurrencies, she concluded that she preferred to have that safety net where she can get her money back. But what exactly is that safety net? It's basically insurance. More often than naught, those charge-backs are regarding stolen card numbers and such. Most people deal directly with the merchant when they have a problem, and the merchant makes it better. Satisfaction guarantees on Ebay cost the seller 10% on Ebay and 5% more if they accepted Paypal (which they almost always use). Of course those fees are ultimately paid by the customer, and so why use ebay? Because they have a satisfaction guarantee. You can get your money back if you don't get your stuff, if it's broken, or even if it arrived too late etc.. sometimes.

All this is is insurance. A paid for service.

So I see absolutely no reason why a company can't offer insurance to Dash/Bitcoin, etc... users. Take SpectroCoin. They are running a debit card system so that people can keep their coins in a trusted account, and use a debit card (or phone) to pay for things in fiat or crypto, with the funds being automatically converted. They pay a fee for this, but they don't have to fuss with the exchanges and they don't have to fuss with securing a wallet. Right now, it's a bit expensive to use, yet people like it as it is. However, they have a unique business plan:

They plan on taking Dash deposits and creating MNs with them. The interest they would earn on the MNs would be used as profit and to pay a small interest to depositors in the future. This will allow their card to be extremely cheap to use (probably still have to pay an exchange and transaction fee) and it can also function as a savings account where you earn interest like in the good old days. These customers won't get the rates they'd get by running their own MNs but they will have the liquidity and won't need to come up with the full amount for collateral.

Sure, this defeats the purpose of being responsible for your own funds and cutting out the middle men / banksters, etc... But the real point here is that it WON'T stop anyone so inclined from being in full control of their wallets.

It's a matter of choice. And Dash will give everyone the choice. My sister would have an account, I'd have my Trezor, and we're both happy.

 

[TanteStefana]

If you need to deal with a shady merchant, use an escrow service. The credit card company is basically doing this now but charging 2.9% of every transaction to do it. Do you like paying 2.9% of everything to Mr Chase?

Exactly, so many choices are possible with Dash. Dash especially. And these choices create job opportunities, etc... This is going to really grow.

What makes it different from fiat? It can't be manipulated. Everyone knows where they stand against the whole of the supply.

 

[Solarminer]

So I see absolutely no reason why a company can't offer insurance to Dash/Bitcoin, etc... users. Take SpectroCoin. They are running a debit card system so that people can keep their coins in a trusted account, and use a debit card (or phone) to pay for things in fiat or crypto, with the funds being automatically converted. They pay a fee for this, but they don't have to fuss with the exchanges and they don't have to fuss with securing a wallet. Right now, it's a bit expensive to use, yet people like it as it is. However, they have a unique business plan:

They plan on taking Dash deposits and creating MNs with them. The interest they would earn on the MNs would be used as profit and to pay a small interest to depositors in the future. This will allow their card to be extremely cheap to use (probably still have to pay an exchange and transaction fee) and it can also function as a savings account where you earn interest like in the good old days. These customers won't get the rates they'd get by running their own MNs but they will have the liquidity and won't need to come up with the full amount for collateral.

Here is the thing that most people don't understand. Banks make an enormous amount of money on loans. It is basically an unlimited money printing machine. So they can afford buildings everywhere and pay people to help you. Think about a house loan. You pay 200K in principal + an additional 285K in interest over 30 years. The bank doesn't even come up with the principal to make the loan, except for up to 10% collateral that they can use again for another loan. So basically the bank makes 485K by printing a document and having a nice guy to help you sign it. So basically that loan pays the bank 16k/year. One loan is enough to keep the lights on. A few more and you pay the rest of the bills and hire staff.

These welcoming banks are not going to be able to exist with Crypto. There is just no way to sustain a building and keep the lights on by storing funds or loaning funds with 100% dedicated collateral. Even running masternodes is going to be limited income. Think $100/year income vs $16,000/year per customer = huge difference.

Here is the big deal. If the bank makes a mistake, they just make a paper correction or pull it from their profit making loan machine. It is so easy to make money it is nothing to cover mistakes. Now compare this to a crypto bank. There is no covering for mistakes. Any mistake is instantly noticed and addressed. I don't think the security from a fiat bank is possible with a crypto bank for this reason. So the nice tellers and the 'let them hold my funds and hide mistakes' is going to really backfire.

The debit card is still going to cost the 2%(maybe 3%) or whatever the network will charge. That is paid through the same credit card networks. So any masternode income will need to cover this cost before you get an interest payment. We really need to get to a direct wallet to wallet transaction to avoid the fees.

And really there are only a few things we need to get people comfortable with using wallets. #1 Iphone app on the app store. #2 Secondary confirmation for withdraws #3 Better backup/password or wallet recovery system. #4 PrivateSend enabled on mobile devices. Once we have all of these, there is a learning curve, but it is a reasonable step forward to adoption. The other half is #5 of getting merchants to accept Dash and offer customer a better deal by paying in Dash. Keep in mind not all countries have stable currencies and it would be a no brainer for them to use Dash before a hyperinflating currency. The better deal could be more stable price, lower fee, less transaction paperwork, and convenience.

Just trying to make it clear, the bank of today can't exist with crypto. It just isn't possible. So we need to focus on making the tools easier....not just saying the hand holding will always be there.

 

[TanteStefana]

Well Solar, my point was that these things can always be done, but you make a good argument that it won't be affordable for anyone to offer such services.

Only time will tell. Maybe there is so much waste in the banking industry (fraud, etc...) that it seems more expensive than it should be, or maybe you're right. This will be an interesting adventure into my twilight years Glad I can still get excited over something like this at my age, LOL

 

[GrandMasterDash]

Of course, non-reversible transactions is one of crypto's key pillars, but I would like to see a variation where I can give a paper crypto note and have it expire if it's not collected within, say, 48 hours.

 

[demo]

And what about taxation?

Do you think that trust in money can really exist without some form of taxation? Society will never trust any kind of money, if this money cannot be taxed somehow. Without some kind of taxation, no money survives. Money was always initially designed to be taxed, and taxation is one of the pillars of money.

In dash you already have some kind of taxation, and this is the budget's 10%. The budget's tax is what makes dash succesfull and attractive compared to other cryptocoins. But this is not enough, you have to be able to tax individuals also. Society will demand individual taxes capability in order to trust dash. Reversible transactions are required in order to enforce taxes for individuals, or a similar mechanism is required able to enforce the confiscation of amounts of dash from individuals.

Taxation for individuals requires of course a proof of individuality, but the proof of individuality is not necessarily against anonymity and privacy. The proof of infividuality solves also the sybil attack problems. The key point is who decides the tax-confiscation. The confiscation should not be decided by the core team or by the masternode owners, but decided by all dash community persons with the rule one_person--one_vote (this also requires proof of individuality).

If you refuse to implement taxation for individuals (as an option in the code that can be ignited by voting if this is the will of the society), society will simply choose another cryptocoin for its needs. It is that simple, nobody needs you, but you need society's acceptance.

Money cannot be defined without a taxes mechanism. Money has been invented primarily in order to facilitate taxes. Taxes is the cause of the invention of money. If you remove the cause then the invention is useless. If you are trying to separate money from taxes, you just dont understand what money's nature is. We all need a society in order to survive in nature, a society always requires taxes in order to function (mainly in order to finance the monopoly of violence ex. army, police etc), so taxes is the reality for every society and it will always be. Please stop your ideological libertarian phantasies and come to reality.

 

[TroyDASH]

Dash isn't a nation-state. It's not our job to confiscate money from individuals for the benefit of "society". If real governments want to do that, or to do it with Dash, that's their problem.

 

[demo]

Dash isn't a nation-state. It's not our job to confiscate money from individuals for the benefit of "society". If real governments want to do that, or to do it with Dash, that's their problem.

Its not their problem. It is your problem. As I said before, nobody really needs you, but you desperately need society's acceptance.

Thats why you are obliged to go with the stream of society, or at best you are allowed to go beam reach. If you go against the stream of society, you will drown. And the stream of society requires the money to be taxed. So you have to include that functionality as an option into your code (and into your protocol), even if you choose (vote) not to activate it.

The strategic decision is to enable taxes by voting (a numerical voting of course). That way you will be with the stream of society and governments that require enormous or low taxes without numerical voting will be against society. So you will earn society's acceptance that way, and you will win, because nobody, not even the government, not even a king or an emperor, can go against the stream of society.

 

[Solarminer]

And what about taxation?

Do you think that trust in money can really exist without some form of taxation? Society will never trust any kind of money, if this money cannot be taxed somehow. Without some kind of taxation, no money survives. Money was always initially designed to be taxed, and taxation is one of the pillars of money.

In dash you already have some kind of taxation, and this is the budget's 10%. The budget's tax is what makes dash succesfull and attractive compared to other cryptocoins. But this is not enough, you have to be able to tax individuals also. Society will demand individual taxes capability in order to trust dash. Reversible transactions are required in order to enforce taxes for individuals, or a similar mechanism is required able to enforce the confiscation of amounts of dash from individuals.

Taxation for individuals requires of course a proof of individuality, but the proof of individuality is not necessarily against anonymity and privacy. The proof of infividuality solves also the sybil attack problems. The key point is who decides the tax-confiscation. The confiscation should not be decided by the core team or by the masternode owners, but decided by all dash community persons with the rule one_person--one_vote (this also requires proof of individuality).

If you refuse to implement taxation for individuals (as an option in the code that can be ignited by voting if this is the will of the society), society will simply choose another cryptocoin for its needs. It is that simple, nobody needs you, but you need society's acceptance.

Money cannot be defined without a taxes mechanism. Money has been invented primarily in order to facilitate taxes. Taxes is the cause of the invention of money. If you remove the cause then the invention is useless. If you are trying to separate money from taxes, you just dont understand what money's nature is. We all need a society in order to survive in nature, a society always requires taxes in order to function (mainly in order to finance the monopoly of violence ex. army, police etc), so taxes is the reality for every society and it will always be. Please stop your ideological libertarian phantasies and come to reality.

You are misinterpreting the reason for taxes and trust. The reason the $ is trusted is not because of taxation. It gained its trust when it was linked to precious metals. Silver Dollar - was a dollar and 1 oz of silver. So during this time it was essentially a promise to pay in silver(along with other denominations for gold/nickel/copper). Once this was in place for long enough to gain trust the coins were made with less silver. Now coins don't have any precious metals. It is a slight of hand over many years.

The taxation forced people to pay in dollars. This wasn't anything to do with trust. This is just a way to force people to use dollars. The concept that dash can't survive without taxing it's users is incorrect. Dash is like gold, you don't tax gold so it keeps it's value. Governments need taxes to support the bloated budgets, inefficient decision mechanisms along with all the 'free stuff' that you pay for with taxes. If a government doesn't collect taxes, yeah, it won't exist.

Dash is an inflationary currency. Normally, the new money going into a currency will devalue the old money. But with Dash the inflation pays for masternodes, miners, and budgets. And we are seeing that this mix has caused an increase in value. So the value that is spent with the blockrewards is attracting more value from new investors and raising the price. In reality, the budget is a sort of tax on the system and is taking some value from all the other holders of Dash.

Bitcoin on the other hand does not have a mechanism to sustain nodes or development. This will have trouble without any changes to the code. Right now there are companies and individuals acting altruistically to develop and keep nodes up, but this won't last forever.

 

[demo]

You are misinterpreting the reason for taxes and trust. The reason the $ is trusted is not because of taxation. It gained its trust when it was linked to precious metals. Silver Dollar - was a dollar and 1 oz of silver. So during this time it was essentially a promise to pay in silver(along with other denominations for gold/nickel/copper). Once this was in place for long enough to gain trust the coins were made with less silver. Now coins don't have any precious metals. It is a slight of hand over many years.

The taxation forced people to pay in dollars. This wasn't anything to do with trust. This is just a way to force people to use dollars. The concept that dash can't survive without taxing it's users is incorrect. Dash is like gold, you don't tax gold so it keeps it's value. Governments need taxes to support the bloated budgets, inefficient decision mechanisms along with all the 'free stuff' that you pay for with taxes. If a government doesn't collect taxes, yeah, it won't exist.

Dash is an inflationary currency. Normally, the new money going into a currency will devalue the old money. But with Dash the inflation pays for masternodes, miners, and budgets. And we are seeing that this mix has caused an increase in value. So the value that is spent with the blockrewards is attracting more value from new investors and raising the price. In reality, the budget is a sort of tax on the system and is taking some value from all the other holders of Dash.

Bitcoin on the other hand does not have a mechanism to sustain nodes or development. This will have trouble without any changes to the code. Right now there are companies and individuals acting altruistically to develop and keep nodes up, but this won't last forever.

What you dont understand solarminer, is that silver or gold initially had also no value at all.
Silver and gold were useless metals, ancients could not use them for arms or for something really usefull in their real life.

But because they were imperishable they were used by ancient people as a store of value and finally as "coins" (they had the sign of the tax collector) in order to facilitate the tax collection.

Thats how silver and gold become valueable, it was their property as imperishable objects signed by the tax collector that turned them valuable.

So it is wrong to claim that fiat money was linked to the commodity of gold and silver, because if you go back in time you will discover that gold and silver initially were not commodities at all. It was their property to keep the sign of the tax collector indestructible that turn them valuable.

Nowdays digital cash has also the same properties, so it can also be named and used as money without linked to any commodity (as it happened to gold and silver also, they were also initially pure money without linked to usefull commodities).

So money and tax is the same thing, it is the sign of the tax collectior that turns something into money. If you remove the sign of the tax collector, then you remove the tax, and if you remove the tax then your object is not considered as money.

So remember this, your digital cash will never become money until the day you will include tax capability on it.

 

[Solarminer]

What you dont understand solarminer, is that silver or gold initially had also no value at all.
Silver and gold were useless metals, ancients could not use them for arms or for something really usefull in their real life.

But because they were imperishable they were used by ancient people as a store of value and finally as "coins" (they had the sign of the tax collector) in order to facilitate the tax collection.

Thats how silver and gold become valueable, it was their property as imperishable objects signed by the tax collector that turned them valuable.

So it is wrong to claim that fiat money was linked to the commodity of gold and silver, because if you go back in time you will discover that gold and silver initially were not commodities at all. It was their property to keep the sign of the tax collector indestructible that turn them valuable.

Nowdays digital cash has also the same properties, so it can also be named and used as money without linked to any commodity (as it happened to gold and silver also, they were also initially pure money without linked to usefull commodities).

So money and tax is the same thing, it is the sign of the tax collectior that turns something into money. If you remove the sign of the tax collector, then you remove the tax, and if you remove the tax then your object is not considered as money.

So remember this, your digital cash will never become money until the day you will include tax capability on it.

Actually, Iron was the first metal to be stamped into coins. The problem was it rusted and was too common. Gold has value because it is rare, doesn't corrode, has better electrical properties than silver or copper, can be molded and formed easily, can be reused over and over. It is also very heavy by volume and hard to counterfeit with another heavier metal. Stamping coins into standard sizes does help with trade but it isn't the reason the metal itself is valuable. Of course, a lot of history is passed down by the "tax collectors" so there are going to be a bias for their benefits.

Why do gold and silver coins from mints or non tax collectors have value today? It is simply because the metals are rare and have attractive properties.

Taxing with a certain commodity or currency is only needed to run a government. If there were no governments, there would be no taxes. All commodities would still have value. The only thing that would stop having value is fiat.

Ok, so moving on from commodities with value to digital currency. A commodity or precious metal has value because of it's rarity and usefulness. With gold there are only so many Oz above ground and is mined at a certain rate. This gives a predictable quantity in circulation. It is also hard to counterfeit and each oz has the same value as any other (fungibility). The rarity and fungibility give it value as money.

Now looking at digital currencies. Dash is one of the few that actually can replace gold. It has a limited supply. Just like gold some dash exist today and some are coming into circulation at a predictable rate. It is also secured against counterfeiting with a public ledger(blockchain). So any Dash mined can be tracked to the same number of dash in circulation today. It also has the ability to mix coins and erasing the history making ensuring all Dash have the same value. So with digital currencies not only does it require rarity and fungibility, but it also requires the ability to see all transactions to prove rarity.

 

[demo]

Actually, Iron was the first metal to be stamped into coins. The problem was it rusted and was too common. Gold has value because it is rare, doesn't corrode, has better electrical properties than silver or copper, can be molded and formed easily, can be reused over and over. It is also very heavy by volume and hard to counterfeit with another heavier metal. Stamping coins into standard sizes does help with trade but it isn't the reason the metal itself is valuable. Of course, a lot of history is passed down by the "tax collectors" so there are going to be a bias for their benefits.

Gold is usefull nowdays, but it was useless for the ancient people at the time they invented money. The only usefulness of gold for the ancient people was that it was rare and imperishable so that it could preserve the sign of the tax collector.
That is the reason it was used as a money object. So at the beginning, money object was also a useless thing having one and only usefull property, to be rare and to be able to preserve a signature. The same properties that fiat money has nowdays. So fiat money is not an invention of our ages, the first money was also created as fiat.

 

[demo]

So any Dash mined can be tracked to the same number of dash in circulation today. It also has the ability to mix coins and erasing the history making ensuring all Dash have the same value.

The society may decide that erasing the history of the digital cash is a deficiency rather than an advantage.

You said to us what dash has, but you forgot to tell us what dash has not.

Dash has not tax capabilities.So it is much more possible for the society to choose another digital cash where taxation is feasible. Because the taxation is the primary goal for every money (physical or digital).

If you design a money in order to avoid taxation, or if you design a money whithout taking into account the easy taxation of that money as a desirable feature, it is like designing a car without wheels.

 

[Solarminer]

The society may decide that erasing the history of the digital cash is a deficiency rather than an advantage.

You said to us what dash has, but you forgot to tell us what dash has not.

Dash has not tax capabilities.So it is much more possible for the society to choose another digital cash where taxation is feasible. Because the taxation is the primary goal for every money (physical or digital).

If you design a money in order to avoid taxation, or if you design a money whithout taking into account the easy taxation of that money as a desirable feature, it is like designing a car without wheels.

Society choosing to be taxed...NO. The only one that cares about taxing you is the government!

Obviously, the government is not going to benefit from crypto. The banking system will also not benefit from crypto. So what? They are parasites that take most of the wealth that you earn through inflation, loans, or taxes.

 

[camosoul]

Dash, like Bitcoin, will never have reversible transactions. It doesn't work that way, it's not even possible. Ethereum has a tiny network compared to Dash, and it's pretty centralized.

However, Last winter when I sat down with my sister to talk about cryptocurrencies, she concluded that she preferred to have that safety net where she can get her money back. But what exactly is that safety net? It's basically insurance. More often than naught, those charge-backs are regarding stolen card numbers and such. Most people deal directly with the merchant when they have a problem, and the merchant makes it better. Satisfaction guarantees on Ebay cost the seller 10% on Ebay and 5% more if they accepted Paypal (which they almost always use). Of course those fees are ultimately paid by the customer, and so why use ebay? Because they have a satisfaction guarantee. You can get your money back if you don't get your stuff, if it's broken, or even if it arrived too late etc.. sometimes.

All this is is insurance. A paid for service.

So I see absolutely no reason why a company can't offer insurance to Dash/Bitcoin, etc... users. Take SpectroCoin. They are running a debit card system so that people can keep their coins in a trusted account, and use a debit card (or phone) to pay for things in fiat or crypto, with the funds being automatically converted. They pay a fee for this, but they don't have to fuss with the exchanges and they don't have to fuss with securing a wallet. Right now, it's a bit expensive to use, yet people like it as it is. However, they have a unique business plan:

They plan on taking Dash deposits and creating MNs with them. The interest they would earn on the MNs would be used as profit and to pay a small interest to depositors in the future. This will allow their card to be extremely cheap to use (probably still have to pay an exchange and transaction fee) and it can also function as a savings account where you earn interest like in the good old days. These customers won't get the rates they'd get by running their own MNs but they will have the liquidity and won't need to come up with the full amount for collateral.

Sure, this defeats the purpose of being responsible for your own funds and cutting out the middle men / banksters, etc... But the real point here is that it WON'T stop anyone so inclined from being in full control of their wallets.

It's a matter of choice. And Dash will give everyone the choice. My sister would have an account, I'd have my Trezor, and we're both happy.

People who are prone to making bad choices like to be able to undo their choices. It's a good judge of a person to see if they can stand by their own decisions. If they can't, well, you might wanna not get to financially involved with that person because it indicates the screw up a lot and like to take back what they did.

People like @Solarminer and I know how and when to go "all in" and when not to... Your average rent-paying Wal Mart shopper, not so much. Their whole way of life is one screw up after another just because everyone else is doing it.

But, this doesn't mean DASH can't infiltrate. It is entirely possible to return things to Wal Mart that you paid for with Cash. So, no reason it can't be done with DASH. The only discrepancy will be the exchange rate. So there should be a fiat value disclaimer for people returning something more than 15 minutes after buying it. Lols! Yes. Stupid people will find this off-putting and talk shit. Fuck them. They're stupid. You can't kiss the asses of every stupid, entitled brat you run into. You'll never get ahead. Sometimes you just have to let the weak fall behind. It's not cruel. It's exactly what they need. No stimulus, no movement. Some will still bottom feed. Look at Chicago... There's always someone in the ghetto no matter what you do.

You can't save them all. Stop trying to reach down to those who refuse to reach up. DASH needs to take care of itself, not every lazy, bratty, blithering idiot it might possibly run into.

 

[camosoul]

You are misinterpreting the reason for taxes and trust. The reason the $ is trusted is not because of taxation.

The dollar no longer gains trust of those born post-gold-standard.

If you get paid in dollars, you damn well better act like they're worth something, or why the hell did you show up for work?

Make the victim complicit in his own destruction. Get fucked hard, or get fucked slightly less hard. Those are the choices government wants it's subjects to see. Get fucked using FRNs. Starve and die if you don't use FRNs. While I don't relish the notion, getting fucked in the ass is less bad than being dead. Most people see it that way. This coercion is what gives the dollar value. They won't murder you outright, they'll just set you up to die easy.

Some people are masochists... They'll never choose a better way. Others live in fear of the government deciding to fuck them harder than it already is... Fear becomes "the smart move." Cowardice becomes intelligence.

Me, I have guns and I know how to use them... The price of "coming for me" is absolutely not worth it.

After the first one, the rest are free.