Thoughts on Reverse Split or Redenominating DASH

[TroyDASH]

There is no issue here. We don't need those kind of investors, they would just make Dash more volatile.



So, when people convert USD to JPY, do they become happier because they have a hundred times more "monies"?

It's different for JPY. People are used to working with large whole numbers. No one is used to working with decimals that have several leading zeros. It's a usability issue. Everybody keeps responding to this saying we don't need that kind of investor, but that is not at all the reason that this is being argued for, as @revelations86 clearly stated here.

Tungfa, I fully understand your point and would agree if we are talking about an investment, especially within the context of a large or complex purchase that we are intending to hold over time (i.e. equity, house, etc..). Investment is the operative word. However, the goal of DASH is to go mainstream and operate within the capacity as a payment mechanism rather than an investment offering made to a sophisticated bunch. Therefore, DASH needs to be presented in a way which appeals to the mainstream user and unfortunately, mainstream users don't sit around and factor total supply when transacting, paying, withdrawing or converting from one currency into another. They look at price alone. This is just the reality and if we want to appeal and gain mainstream adopters, we must confirm to this reality. It is not deception. Why did we hire a marketing firm to begin with? To present a product in the most suitable light and create awareness among the public. I would therefore argue that denominating in mDash is the right approach to achieve this goal as another user suggested here.

In my opinion, we should not be subjecting end users to decimals smaller than 0.01. Whether that means re-denominating DASH, or using a different denomination like mDASH, or using a different name entirely, or committing to always displaying the values in the user's preferred currency. But I would submit to you that there's a reason why mBTC and uBTC have failed to achieve widespread usage and understanding, and using anything other than DASH means we may not be taking full advantage of our brand.

 

[lynx]

@TroyDASH

@revelations86 said people were put off by the price of a whole Dash, not by having to use decimals.

If it makes you happy, the wallets could have an option to hide Dash balances entirely. If you say users are bothered by it, obscure it away, under the hood, like they plan to do with addresses.

But that doesn't address the op's main concern. His "non-investor" users never bought any Dash to begin with.

 

[TroyDASH]

@TroyDASH

@revelations86 said people were put off by the price of a whole Dash, not by having to use decimals.

If it makes you happy, the wallets could have an option to hide Dash balances entirely. If you say users are bothered by it, obscure it away, under the hood, like they plan to do with addresses.

But that doesn't address the op's main concern. His "non-investor" users never bought any Dash to begin with.

It very well could be the same thing that is an issue for both users and investors alike.
In either case, yes, I would agree that it should be obscured away, but I also don't like if obscuring it away means that users don't see "DASH" when they are using Dash.

 

[revelations86]

I think Troydash captured what I meant to say perfectly. In that we need to treat Dash just like a currency and not as an investment. These are 2 different concepts as I keep saying over and over. If we are positioning Dash as a currency, then it needs to adopt the characteristics of currencies. One of which is multiple denominations. The USD contains 100, 50, 20, 10, 5, and 1 bills to make it easier for people to transact. mDash should be our base unit (akin to a $1 bill) Secondly, Troy Dash made an excellent point regarding going to 2 decimal points which is yet another characteristic of currencies and I agree with this. There are some projects such as Electroneum (ETN) which have this feature for the purposes of making it easily spendable and usable.

Dash, as an investment (for the purposes of Masternode purchase) is fine the way it is now, but for the purposes of a easily transactable currency for everyday use, it needs to be refined so that it becomes so easy that your grandmother could use it. D-igital Cash, Evolution, this is the direction we are going in guys and just like with the rebranding from Darkcoin, we need to make these changes. Again, we need to see Dash as a currency, not as an investment.

How do I go about putting this up for a vote? Do I submit a proposal through Dash Central?

 

[yocko]

I think Troydash captured what I meant to say perfectly. In that we need to treat Dash just like a currency and not as an investment. These are 2 different concepts as I keep saying over and over. If we are positioning Dash as a currency, then it needs to adopt the characteristics of currencies. One of which is multiple denominations. The USD contains 100, 50, 20, 10, 5, and 1 bills to make it easier for people to transact. mDash should be our base unit (akin to a $1 bill) Secondly, Troy Dash made an excellent point regarding going to 2 decimal points which is yet another characteristic of currencies and I agree with this. There are some projects such as Electroneum (ETN) which have this feature for the purposes of making it easily spendable and usable.

Dash, as an investment (for the purposes of Masternode purchase) is fine the way it is now, but for the purposes of a easily transactable currency for everyday use, it needs to be refined so that it becomes so easy that your grandmother could use it. D-igital Cash, Evolution, this is the direction we are going in guys and just like with the rebranding from Darkcoin, we need to make these changes. Again, we need to see Dash as a currency, not as an investment.

How do I go about putting this up for a vote? Do I submit a proposal through Dash Central?

I think a proposal is the only way to get a true concensous of what stake holders want

 

[TroyDASH]

I think Troydash captured what I meant to say perfectly. In that we need to treat Dash just like a currency and not as an investment. These are 2 different concepts as I keep saying over and over. If we are positioning Dash as a currency, then it needs to adopt the characteristics of currencies. One of which is multiple denominations. The USD contains 100, 50, 20, 10, 5, and 1 bills to make it easier for people to transact. mDash should be our base unit (akin to a $1 bill) Secondly, Troy Dash made an excellent point regarding going to 2 decimal points which is yet another characteristic of currencies and I agree with this. There are some projects such as Electroneum (ETN) which have this feature for the purposes of making it easily spendable and usable.

Dash, as an investment (for the purposes of Masternode purchase) is fine the way it is now, but for the purposes of a easily transactable currency for everyday use, it needs to be refined so that it becomes so easy that your grandmother could use it. D-igital Cash, Evolution, this is the direction we are going in guys and just like with the rebranding from Darkcoin, we need to make these changes. Again, we need to see Dash as a currency, not as an investment.

How do I go about putting this up for a vote? Do I submit a proposal through Dash Central?

I support the concept, but from what I have seen thus far, I would bet that this would be unlikely to pass a vote right now. Recommend saving yourself the 5 dash proposal fee

 

[bigrcanada]

Cross posting on this as it's a reply to the same thing. ..

"BIG no to any kind of split! I'm with Camsoul on this one.... If people are to ignorant, stupid or lazy to learn something other then a 2 decimal system... They deserve to be poor and destitute. Period. Gold and Silver worked awesome for centuries.... There were no 2 decimal points.

Stock splits/ quantitative easing/ print money is what has made the mess we are in today.

I and other MN most certainly would be voting no on this. People, Dash and digital currencies are not here to redistribute the wealth of the world... It's meant to be a fair medium of exchange and a store of value....and a unit of account that is not controlled by governmentsor central banks .. Not to fix the social problems of the world. Jesus! If your friends are too stupid to comprehend nothing more then 2 decimals or are buying currency because it's price per unit is cheaper and can't wrap their mind around supply ... You should immediately dump them as friends... Just saying"

 

[camosoul]

Stupid people (still) exist.

Surprise!

I think a proposal is the only way to get a true concensous of what steak holders want

I don't think anyone sufficiently stupid to consider this an issue, can afford the proposal fee...

...because people so exceptionally stupid, are, and deserve to be, broke.

Working as intended...

I prefer my steak rare... Did you mean stake? Case and point...

You've got DASH, and you've got duffs. Same as dollars and pennies. Frankly, I think granularity is at risk without a fractional increase... But this would have no impact on value, and would not be a revaluation. The pennies we already have just get divided into smaller units to accommodate deflation beyond 6 points. Whether one believes DASH will ever be worth $100,000 or not, failing to prepare for that would result in an inability to provide fine enough resolution.

 

[yocko]

Stupid people (still) exist.

Surprise!

I don't think anyone sufficiently stupid to consider this an issue, can afford the proposal fee...

...because people so exceptionally stupid, are, and deserve to be, broke.

Working as intended...

I prefer my steak rare... Did you mean stake? Case and point...

You've got DASH, and you've got duffs. Same as dollars and pennies. Frankly, I think granularity is at risk without a fractional increase... But this would have no impact on value, and would not be a revaluation. The pennies we already have just get divided into smaller units to accommodate deflation beyond 6 points. Whether one believes DASH will ever be worth $100,000 or not, failing to prepare for that would result in an inability to provide fine enough resolution.

Thanks for pointing that out, I must have had dinner on my mind. Median rare it was.

 

[revelations86]

Cross posting on this as it's a reply to the same thing. ..

"BIG no to any kind of split! I'm with Camsoul on this one.... If people are to ignorant, stupid or lazy to learn something other then a 2 decimal system... They deserve to be poor and destitute. Period. Gold and Silver worked awesome for centuries.... There were no 2 decimal points.

Stock splits/ quantitative easing/ print money is what has made the mess we are in today.

I and other MN most certainly would be voting no on this. People, Dash and digital currencies are not here to redistribute the wealth of the world... It's meant to be a fair medium of exchange and a store of value....and a unit of account that is not controlled by governmentsor central banks .. Not to fix the social problems of the world. Jesus! If your friends are too stupid to comprehend nothing more then 2 decimals or are buying currency because it's price per unit is cheaper and can't wrap their mind around supply ... You should immediately dump them as friends... Just saying"

The point isn't that we should dumb things down because many people are ignorant. The point here has to do with adopting characteristics of a usable currency. Dash is being positioned to function like a transactable currency not gold or silver or any other complex financial asset. It therefore, must take on the characteristics of a currency which entail simplicity, speed and stability. Now, whether this is accomplished under the hood through a mapping (i.e. users only see and spend USD value to 2 decimal points of their dash) or flat outright is irrelevant.

Take exchange traded funds (ETF) for example. We are not saying let's dismantle the whole structure of ETFs because the average person is too stupid or ignorant to understand what they are and how they are compromised. What we are saying though is if you want to start getting people to use ETFs to make everyday purchases, it can't function the way it currently functions and needs to change to function like the dollar, NOT in terms of how it is derived, but in terms of how it used. This is why people don't come into stores with bars of gold and silver to buy pizza or a bottle of water.

Do you see the point we are trying to make?

 

[TroyDASH]

I think @rion had the best summary of the arguments supporting a redenomination.

From a couple months ago but still relevant:

https://github.com/riongull/notes/blob/master/dash_unit_denominations.md

Since apparently people are talking about it again now

 

[rion]

Thanks for linking to my document @TroyDASH. I haven't given up on fighting for this yet, so I"m sure this thread will serve us well in the future. I'd be interested in hearing what the best alternative is to my proposed solution. Thoughts anyone?

 

[solarguy]

A good user interface that displays a convenient dollar'ish sub-unit or amount of Dash with a convenient name. Not a Duff. Not a Dash-buck, but something along those lines. 99% of the benefit, far more flexible if the value changes a lot (like it just did....again) and it doesn't break stuff. And Core is not vehemently opposed to it. In fact, I bet they are highly in favor it.