Should Platform run on all nodes or should Platform run only on High Performance nodes ?

[vazaki3]

Generally, people act to conceal their collections, so whales prefer to appear as dolphins, and the dolphins prefer to appear as sardines, if anything, there are more clusters than MNOwatch has identified. So, for sure, plenty of people capable to run 4k nodes, even 10k nodes.

Correct. People are trying to obfuscate their voting behavior, by voting to irrelevant/burned proposals.
Only the sardines are usually honest, but sometimes even them are grouped with a whale to hide themselves!
Thats why we have coded the similarities report (which is somehow abandoned nowdays, because it takes time to finish so it needs a more powerfull machine than the one we have).
I also plan one day to change the code of mnowatch.sh in a way so that when it runs it will deal only with specific hot proposals and it will exclude all the rest irrelevant/burned proposals that are often used for voting behavior obfuscation.
I have too many plans, but unfortunately too little time available....Yet I act like I'm eternal.

 

[vazaki3]

This is nice. But how many times? We read this again and again, it's endless.
vazaki3: they steal the rewards
xkcd: I gotta correct this
vazaki3: they steal the rewards
xkcd: I gotta correct this
...
It seems, that there are a lot of things, that vazaki3 just refuses to understand.
IMHO any dialogue with him/her is useless...

And you are refusing to understand that the DashPlatform proponents prefer to steal the rewards from the masternodes, instead of honestly and proudly launch their DashPlatform standalone to the free market and compete as a decent L1 cryptocurrency without being dependent of Dash's subsidy.

It is a clash between liberty and statism. How can a libertatian agree with a statist? The DashPlatform proponents were fed by the Dash-state and by the masternodes during 5 years, and now, like a snake, they want to bite the hand that feeded them. The agents are always feeded by a state, they are get used to it and are always dependent to state structures to finance them, so they refuse to understand that there are alternative paths of evolution.

IMHO any dialogue with you, @kot, @QuantumExplorer and all the rest hardcore proponents of statism is useless...

 

[GrandMasterDash]

There is a real danger that mnowatch will no longer be able to accurately distinguish between indivuals of regular MNs and HPMNs. Let's compare the old with the new...

Note: in the following, I will skip over custodian solutions as that would apply to both now and to the future.

In the current system:

Humpbacks have flexibility in their voting behavior. If, for example, someone has 4 MNs and they are not entirely sure which way to vote on a proposal, they may choose to cast 3 Yes votes and 1 No votes, etc.

Single node MNOs can only achieve this through multisig, which while possible, I suspect most just vote black or white, Yes / No / Abstain. (again, discarding custodians)

In the new system:

Will HPMNOs have four separate voting keys? - unknown. But regardless, we do know that masternode shares give both MNOs and HPMNOs this variable voting option. Assuming an easy interface, masternode shares could be the preferred choice for everyone. Not just for multiple parties but for whales and humpbacks alike. This means a humpback creates 4 masternode shares for a HPMN and no one knows if it's one person behind it or four persons.

I conclude, HPMNs plus masternode shares has actually made things worse.

 

[vazaki3]

In the new system:

Will HPMNOs have four separate voting keys? - unknown. But regardless, we do know that masternode shares give both MNOs and HPMNOs this variable voting option. Assuming an easy interface, masternode shares could be the preferred choice for everyone. Not just for multiple parties but for whales and humpbacks alike. This means a humpback creates 4 masternode shares for a HPMN and no one knows if it's one person behind it or four persons.

I conclude, HPMNs plus masternode shares has actually made things worse.

Yes...the masternode shares combined to HPMNOs HCollateralMNOs=HCMNOs will make blockchain analysis more difficult, when searching for individualities.
But the vote analysis will remain the same.

"Πάλιν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι ἐὰν δύο ὑμῶν συμφωνήσωσιν ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς περὶ παντὸς πράγματος οὗ ἐὰν αἰτήσωνται, γενήσεται αὐτοῖς παρὰ τοῦ πατρός μου τοῦ ἐν οὐρανοῖς." -- Matthew 18:19

 

[GrandMasterDash]

Yes...the masternode shares combined to HPMNOs HCollateralMNOs=HCMNOs will make blockchain analysis more difficult, when searching for individualities.
But the vote analysis will remain the same.

Well what good is that! The whole point of this was, in Sam's words, to give better decentralization. In fact, Sam says the 10K option gives the best decentralization when in fact it just means whales and humpbacks will be indistinguishable. Dash is so fucked up now.

 

[vazaki3]

Well what good is that! The whole point of this was, in Sam's words, to give better decentralization. In fact, Sam says the 10K option gives the best decentralization when in fact it just means whales and humpbacks will be indistinguishable. Dash is so fucked up now.

We are living in an evil dominated universe, @GrandMasterDash. Evil always prevails. Get used to it, but dont stop your fight, because for this fight you will be judged when this universe ends.

 

[AgnewPickens]

There is a real danger that mnowatch will no longer be able to accurately distinguish between indivuals of regular MNs and HPMNs. Let's compare the old with the new...

Note: in the following, I will skip over custodian solutions as that would apply to both now and to the future.

In the current system:

Humpbacks have flexibility in their voting behavior. If, for example, someone has 4 MNs and they are not entirely sure which way to vote on a proposal, they may choose to cast 3 Yes votes and 1 No votes, etc.

Single node MNOs can only achieve this through multisig, which while possible, I suspect most just vote black or white, Yes / No / Abstain. (again, discarding custodians)

In the new system:

Will HPMNOs have four separate voting keys? - unknown. But regardless, we do know that masternode shares give both MNOs and HPMNOs this variable voting option. Assuming an easy interface, masternode shares could be the preferred choice for everyone. Not just for multiple parties but for whales and humpbacks alike. This means a humpback creates 4 masternode shares for a HPMN and no one knows if it's one person behind it or four persons.

I conclude, HPMNs plus masternode shares has actually made things worse.

My understanding is that HPMNs will have their voting weight adjusted, not have separate voting keys for each 1K in the Platform node.

 

[GrandMasterDash]

My understanding is that HPMNs will have their voting weight adjusted, not have separate voting keys for each 1K in the Platform node.

Yes, that may well be the case, but regardless, I think it would be desirable for most people to switch to masternode shares simply because they will get granular voting for free.

Talking of which, I would appreciate if someone at Crowdnode could show us how their users voted for HPMNs. How different was it to regular masternode voting? Can we determine not just the voting outcome but also show proof that voting was not skewed in favor of one group over another?

 

[xkcd]

Yes, that may well be the case, but regardless, I think it would be desirable for most people to switch to masternode shares simply because they will get granular voting for free.

Talking of which, I would appreciate if someone at Crowdnode could show us how their users voted for HPMNs. How different was it to regular masternode voting? Can we determine not just the voting outcome but also show proof that voting was not skewed in favor of one group over another?

Crowdnode have not yet cast their final vote, though likely their members have already voted. We will see their votes on this page and Demo is working on a transparency report (available soon) that will show the votes have not been tampered with.

https://mnowatch.org/crowdnode/

 

[vazaki3]

Yes, that may well be the case, but regardless, I think it would be desirable for most people to switch to masternode shares simply because they will get granular voting for free.

Talking of which, I would appreciate if someone at Crowdnode could show us how their users voted for HPMNs. How different was it to regular masternode voting? Can we determine not just the voting outcome but also show proof that voting was not skewed in favor of one group over another?

I have not finished yet the script mentioned above by @xkcd

In the meantime, you can see the crowdnode addresses here and by quering the crowdnode api you can discover the votes. It will be interesting @ndrezza to confirm whether we at mnowatch succed to discover all their addresses, or if not all of them, what percentage of them. Even if they deny to confirm, the proof that we discovered all their addresses will be our succesfull prediction of the crowdnode votes before these votes are casted into the budget by the crowdnode admins. But honestly, I dont know whether I have the time to finish the script before the end of this cycle. So our prediction may be postponed for the next cycle.

Anyway, if someone wants to see the votes of a specific crowdnoder (for example of this one XgtBRVk95C9VK7tYUuR6GzHe4si6khfcyU who deposited 1058 dash in crowdnode), he/she can discover his/her votes by checking the current mnowatch crowdnode addresses list and by calling the crowdnode API for the specific address this way.

 

[GrandMasterDash]

@vazaki3 How much of these scripts are in bash or something? I haven't looked any further than a blink. Is there a case to document / rewrite some bits to make it more accessible, to maybe encourage others to contribute?

 

[vazaki3]

@vazaki3 How much of these scripts are in bash or something? I haven't looked any further than a blink. Is there a case to document / rewrite some bits to make it more accessible, to maybe encourage others to contribute?

The only scripts available are in bash, and are used to search the blockchain and produce the list of crowdnode addresses.
They are pre-alpha, maybe buggy, so until @ndrezza confirms that our list is somehow correct, it is meaningless to publish them.
Not to mention that the script takes about 9 hours to finish. Anyway, if @xkcd thinks we should publish them, its ok with me.

Based on the list of the published crowdnode addresses, someone can create a script and discover all the votes. This script seems to me much more easy to be written, and it will not take much time to finish. But this script has not been written yet, at all. Not a single line.

 

[vampyren]

BrightID is using an app, installed in your telephone. You will get verified on BrightID based on your social relationships and the communities you belong to. These are presented to BrightID with your connections and the groups you create or join. If someone discovers the real identity of one of your connections, he can start tracing back and may discover your real identity too. This is what facebook also does. So BrightID is yet another soft KYC solution.

I dont like soft KYC solutions, because anonymity is my number one priority.

That is true but atleast its better the other alternatives i seen.

And you have some great skills reading the MNOwatch. Its pretty amazing actually. Even if its not 100% accurate. And i agree with pretty much of everything you have been saying.

ps. i sometimes renew my node, maybe sell when there is price jump or buy when there is a big dump....so there is that.

Dash is an economy. That implies both social and financial issues. You're both right.

I agree also, its both!

And you are right. This is not a product for the friends and family. This product is targeted for quite specifically experienced developers and engineers.
So, unless your relatives and friends are hardcore-blockchain devs, there is no need to mention about the platform.

This is sort of scarry to read.
I still struggle to even get the basic. Can you or anyone give me 3 usecases for platform as a end user?

Instead of talking about tech lets talk about usecases. How much data would the 95% of the usecases require?
The price for that amount of data?
The risk&reward for 1k/4k etc can come after above. In my view if we want to be the best cash + having features like wallet ID, image etc that will not need that much data to justify the centralization. Paying even 1 dollar to create a account is OK.

 

[kot]

Why scary @vampyren?
Use case for software development platform is to create software on top of it.
Created software can have almost unlimited number of use cases. It depends on the business needs of the developers.

 

[vampyren]

Why scary @vampyren?
Use case for software development platform is to create software on top of it.
Created software can have almost unlimited number of use cases. It depends on the business needs of the developers.

This goes back to when i ask who are we competing with? ETH? AVAX? BSC/SOL/ALG.....
If so why would anyone go with our platform? what is the killer application that would attract devs? With so so so many competition out there which have much deeper pockets and are way way ahead of us. Sure its never to late to get into the game but you need to offer something that is 10x better then the rest. Do we have that? What is it?

It's one thing to add the possibility to make our core value (digital cash) even better but its another to risk what we want to be best at and jump into a new field that is already overcrowded.

So again why do we push for platform so hard? Can you even give me 3 top whatever that you think will make Dash better?
What would the data need be for that? The cost if we run on 1k nodes?

Don't want to be disrespectful or rude or anything but Has anyone actually thought about these things before jumping into development? (again i remind you that i'm a product manager so i think first what is the usecase, value and why we do this even before talking tech)...
I know i'm very late into the game and we spent a ton on this but i really like to understand this in order to support what we are doing.

 

[xkcd]

This goes back to when i ask who are we competing with? ETH? AVAX? BSC/SOL/ALG.....
If so why would anyone go with our platform? what is the killer application that would attract devs? With so so so many competition out there which have much deeper pockets and are way way ahead of us. Sure its never to late to get into the game but you need to offer something that is 10x better then the rest. Do we have that? What is it?

It's one thing to add the possibility to make our core value (digital cash) even better but its another to risk what we want to be best at and jump into a new field that is already overcrowded.

So again why do we push for platform so hard? Can you even give me 3 top whatever that you think will make Dash better?
What would the data need be for that? The cost if we run on 1k nodes?

Don't want to be disrespectful or rude or anything but Has anyone actually thought about these things before jumping into development? (again i remind you that i'm a product manager so i think first what is the usecase, value and why we do this even before talking tech)...
I know i'm very late into the game and we spent a ton on this but i really like to understand this in order to support what we are doing.

These are good questions, but even Product Managers get it wrong sometimes, Luna/Terra. What was the point of learning about Quantum Mechanics? Well nothing at first, but ultimately that understanding is what under pins computers. It's hard to know exactly what use cases Platform will have because it is so versatile. Consider Ethereum for example, when it first launched you knew it as the 'world computer', but even so, you had no idea that its main use case would be to scam people in particular ICOs in 2017 and NFTs in 2021. Can you guess the next scam on Ethereum for the 2024 bull run?

Same shit with Platform, luckily, the MNOs decided on the 4k solution, so we don't throw the whole network under the bus, if it fails, we just reconfigure the network again, but by running Evo on just a few nodes, we limit the risk in case it doesn't pan out.

 

[vazaki3]

I still struggle to even get the basic. Can you or anyone give me 3 usecases for platform as a end user?

1st usecase. A replicated governance tree.

4) Turn the Dashplatform profitable by creating an app that will support the creation of a Dash knowledge tree. This decision tree will be replicated everywhere in the platform and people will vote/pray on it, add or delete branches of it, and comment on it (by paying the relevant platform fee). <-- governance without amanda's chief
5) Make the tree an absolute commitment for all the developers of DCG, so that no DCG development is allowed in case there is not a relevant branch of the tree that allows it. <-- accountable developers

2nd usecase. An irrefutable decentralized search engine, that will compete google's (controled by agents and companies) or mnowatch's (controled by me and @xkcd ) centralized search engines.

The Dashplatform is something similar to the OP_return mnowatch page. The Dashplatform is a blockchain, like bitcoin or dash is, but extremely searchable (in contrast to bitcoin or dash). Of course people could search extremely the blockchain in privacy, as you did, and in that case the extreme searching capabilities of DashPlatform may be considered as obsolete. But are they? DashPlatform makes the blockchain searching public, available to anyone and most importantly offers a public search that is irrefutable and uncensorable .
Searching in Mnowatch OP_RETURN page is not irrefutable, because someone may claim that not all OP_RETURN content resides in mnowatch, and that some content have been excluded from the search.
This property of irrefutable uncensorable public search that Dashplatform offers, gives an advantage over any other search engine (google included)

 

[GrandMasterDash]

Use cases is one thing but finding the killer use cases is something entirely different. Personally, I don't see how anyone can know with certainty. We do know that dash wallet and treasury will move to it, but that's too self-serving. I will say, though, that a lot of what Platform does can be achieved through Bullet Proofs and Zero Knowledge Proofs. Generalized ZKPs are advancing quite a bit now, it's just that DCG don't have enough technical ability to deal with it, so they built Platform instead.

 

[vampyren]

These are good questions, but even Product Managers get it wrong sometimes, Luna/Terra. What was the point of learning about Quantum Mechanics? Well nothing at first, but ultimately that understanding is what under pins computers. It's hard to know exactly what use cases Platform will have because it is so versatile.

Sure there is no guarantee even PM's get it wrong sometimes. But we need to ask the questions. Who is the competetor? I still don't know the answer.
Do we think our solution is 10x better or allot better? how so?
Why are we doing a generic platform? to me this seems to be deviating from our main usecase.
What was the goal when we started Platform?
If we had some specific usecases in mind why don't we simply build towards that instead of making something very generic. I remember working at Ericsson long way back. This was actually the reason their mobile division went belly up. Instead of focusing on making a product that simply worked they did a huge generic monster that never got ready or was good enough. And in the end no one wanted it since it was inferior in many ways.
I don't want us to do the same misstake!

Use cases is one thing but finding the killer use cases is something entirely different. Personally, I don't see how anyone can know with certainty. We do know that dash wallet and treasury will move to it, but that's too self-serving. I will say, though, that a lot of what Platform does can be achieved through Bullet Proofs and Zero Knowledge Proofs. Generalized ZKPs are advancing quite a bit now, it's just that DCG don't have enough technical ability to deal with it, so they built Platform instead.

Exactly! Considering we still spend allot on Platform, do you think its to late to change course now?
To me its never to late but some might not agree.
If we don't need something that is very expensive to maintain and is not what we really need i think its wise to reconsider.
Food for thought

 

[GrandMasterDash]

Who is the competetor? I still don't know the answer.
...
If we had some specific usecases in mind why don't we simply build towards that instead of making something very generic. I remember working at Ericsson long way back. This was actually the reason their mobile division went belly up. Instead of focusing on making a product that simply worked they did a huge generic monster that never got ready or was good enough. And in the end no one wanted it since it was inferior in many ways.
I don't want us to do the same misstake!

The backstory is, Evan had these ideas of how to make dash "so easy your grandmother could use it". It was fueled by community members such as myself because that also was exactly my first thought on crypto in general. Evan mentioned usernames and savings accounts and actual physical branches you could walk into for help. MNOs would eventually run dedicated hardware and everything would be funded from the treasury, a money printing machine that would feed itself and keep growing into a monster money machine. Global domination.

After Evan left, DCG spent years scratching their head trying to build a foundation. They tried this several times, over the years abandoning and rebuilding. After a few years they decided what they wanted could be generalized resulting in the current stack that can not efficiently be run by just a few thousands nodes that the network already has in place.

The comparison with Ericsson is spot on. Ironically, Erlang, explicitly built (largely) by Ericsson to massively scale network programming. What can we say about competing programming languages that won market share despite their shortcomings?

One of the benefits cited for Platform is the result set proofs, that the returned data is actually complete. What is the killer app for this feature? I suspect the truth is, the growing toolsets for generalized ZKPs is fast outpacing what Platform is doing without the need for a very small federated network (HPMNs).

Not to mention the content filtering coming to Platform, required because data privacy was never considered essential.

The coming timeline looks something like this:

1. Establish 4K HPMNs.
2. Remove 1K MNs because 4K HPMNs do everything anyway.
3. Establish 10K HPMNs because that was always the magic number.
4. Move completely to Proof of Stake, HPMNs being the largest controlling share holders.
5. To get in bed with financial institutions, HPMNs will voluntarily filter Platform content and in the process overcompensate to please their masters.
6. Game over.