Pre-Proposal: DASH TEXT - SMS Wallets for Everyone (Exclusively for Dash) - FIRST STAGE VENEZUELA

[Johnny Reyes]

Great idea Lorenzo.

I believe that if you can really control the security in this proposal (technical details), this will be the key access to many people not only in Venezuela but all around the world with 3rd world problems. We are not just talking about the possibilities to have or not a smart phone, but the internet conection in some of this countries is really bad, so this will help Dash to be used anywhere. Keep up with it and keep making this community grater.

Regards

 

[GrandMasterDash]

Hello Jose, thanks for your support, very good questions, we will publish an FAQ with a lot of focus on security when we publish the proposal on DashCentral. But for now I can give you the following answers:

- Dash Text wallets are not meant to be your primary tool for storing your funds, for example, you got cash in your physical wallet and someone steals it from you, you just lost those funds. Just like you shouldn't carry all your fiat money in your pocket, you shouldn't carry all your Dash in a Dash Text wallet, these are wallets for microtransactions and to make your life easier in the streets, we will be very clear about this when marketing the product.

-However Dash Text wallets will be safer than just cash in your pocket, funds are controlled by the phone number, if someone steals your phone, you can just call the phone company and report that SIM card as stolen and they will shut it down, then you just ask them for a new SIM card with the same phone number and you'll have access to your funds again in your new phone.

-Phone cloning is a very unlikely scenario and one that requires a lot of work from the attacker, since these wallets are not meant to store much funds, we do not see an incentive here for thieves. However we will explore other possibilities to defend users against this type of threat.

Thanks again for your questions!

-Lorenzo Rey

First you say the phone can be blocked, but then you say the phone company can re-enable a new phone with an old number. This is exactly one of the methods of a hacker; they use social engineering to enable a new phone with an old number, thus gaining control of the dash text wallet. A smartphone can mitigate against such attacks e.g. Signal uses a registration lock pin.

You have moved responsibility to others. You have moved private key management to BlockCypher and wallet control / recovery to the phone provider.

You have also suggested that smartphones are not readily accessible to Venezuelans e.g. too expensive, or the lower end phones are too slow for dash wallet. In which case, you bring into question the validity of all the work that has taken place in Venezuela to date e.g. only being able to reach 40% of the population due to expensive / slow phones.

 

[blockchaintech]

I commented to you, so that you estimate it if it arrives to present itself to the treasury.

I recently participated in some meetings, where the use of the GSM system (basic system of mobile phone) and sending of SMS were discussed, and the statistics of the operators were very conclusive.
Today everyone has a smartphone, with a minimum 3G connection to the Internet. and they communicate through the Internet through wsapp, telegram, etc.

Access to a second-hand smartphone is very easy, the African dash colleagues will be able to inform you about this, since the African population has mostly smartphones, and they have worse communication infrastructures.
If people use 'the perolito' is their decision, so I understand that they have 2 phones the Smartphone and 'the perolito', they must decide what to use according to their needs.

The matter is simple: a smartphone requires a level of training and that people are willing to be trained in the use of new technologies that involves having a pocket computer, and that is digital literacy, and in the world there are many people with a low level of training in digital skills.

The cost of sending a sms, can be 30-40 ctm of $ / eur, (similar to a bitcoin fee), which must be added the cost of the fee for the service to be self-sufficient and lasting over time and no flower for 3 months of treasury.

There are already projects in BTC and BCH of little success that cover this small market of use.
Ejem: https://cointext.io/regions/

In addition, they have support to several continents not only Venezuela (country), and if you do not support instandsend or privatesend, ('impossible' in sms txt) there is no competitive advantage.

Invest + of 100 tokens, when the treasury can have other international projects with a more interesting ROI I consider it to waste time and very scarce resources today.

It would be more interesting that from the support of Dash's Venezuela, you would promote the migration of your compatriots to smartphone, and if they steal your smartphone, a problem that can happen in Venezuela, USA, Brazil, UK, etc.
They Have training in recovering your wallet in another phone.


Thanks for your pre-proposal.

 

[LorenzoRey]

First you say the phone can be blocked, but then you say the phone company can re-enable a new phone with an old number. This is exactly one of the methods of a hacker; they use social engineering to enable a new phone with an old number, thus gaining control of the dash text wallet. A smartphone can mitigate against such attacks e.g. Signal uses a registration lock pin.

You have moved responsibility to others. You have moved private key management to BlockCypher and wallet control / recovery to the phone provider.

You have also suggested that smartphones are not readily accessible to Venezuelans e.g. too expensive, or the lower end phones are too slow for dash wallet. In which case, you bring into question the validity of all the work that has taken place in Venezuela to date e.g. only being able to reach 40% of the population due to expensive / slow phones.

-Hello GrandmMasterDash! Phone companies can block a phone number and re-enable it on a new phone in both dumb phones and smartphones. Regarding the hacking, these are wallets made for casual use, we see no incentive for a hacker to go thru all the trouble to hack a wallet that will probably only have 1-5 USD in Dash. For example, is a vending machine secure ? It absolutely is for it's use case, if someone really really wants to break it they might do it putting a ton of effort, but it's not worth it because the content of the vending machine is not worth the trouble. There is usually a inverse relation between utility and security, for example, mobile SPV wallets are less secure than a QT wallet, but are more convenient, you shouldn't hold all your funds in an SPV wallet either, SPV wallets do not have a full copy of the blockchain and are thus, susceptible to a various range of attacks, but their level of security is good enough for their use cases, since most people won't hold all their funds in them anyways.

-We are sad you think we moved responsibility to others, that's not the case, it's just that if you want to bring people an SMS service, you need phone companies, and if you want to bring reliable wallet management, don't you think it is safer to use a well known provider such as Blockcypher, who are also allies to Dash? The tipping bot we use in discord uses Blockcypher as well, and most tips people give over there pay for more than a lunch in Venezuela. The bot is secure enough for it's use case: tipping. Just like Dash Text will be secure enough for it's purpose.

-40% is a big chunk of the market, and every team in Venezuela will still continue to bring Dash to that Huge Market! For example, nobody questions the success of the iPhone in the US, but only around 27% of the population of the US have iPhones, if you're say, a game developer, who has been selling your game for iPhones for a while and now you decide to release your Game on Android, does that put into question your work on the iPhone? Absolutely not, the more markets and use cases the better, every initiative in Venezuela will benefit in some way from these SMS wallets, and all the massification work that has been done, which our team has been a part of for a long time, will continue, and Dash will expand to reach as many people as possible !

Thank you so much for taking the time to ask these very valid questions, again, we really hope to gain your support.

-Lorenzo Rey

 

[LorenzoRey]

Great idea Lorenzo.

I believe that if you can really control the security in this proposal (technical details), this will be the key access to many people not only in Venezuela but all around the world with 3rd world problems. We are not just talking about the possibilities to have or not a smart phone, but the internet conection in some of this countries is really bad, so this will help Dash to be used anywhere. Keep up with it and keep making this community grater.

Regards

Hello Johnny! Thanks for you support. Completely agree with you.

-Lorenzo Rey

 

[GrandMasterDash]

@LorenzoRey I am not overly against your project, who knows, maybe I'm wrong. But still, you asked if I support it and I simply give you my feedback; I have reservations.

In my mind, you have already stated the correct problem, that 60% of Venezuelans are without a smartphone. This is the problem you need to fix as it has the most potential to improve people's lives; not just money but also socially; their ability to search and connect with others.

I will still vote against this proposal but I wish you luck with it.

Phone companies can block a phone number and re-enable it on a new phone in both dumb phones and smartphones.

Yes, but an app can lock down registration, requiring a special pin in the event of a reset e.g. third party hijack. This is not easily achieved with a simple phone. See Signal Private Messenger for more info.

 

[LorenzoRey]

I commented to you, so that you estimate it if it arrives to present itself to the treasury.

I recently participated in some meetings, where the use of the GSM system (basic system of mobile phone) and sending of SMS were discussed, and the statistics of the operators were very conclusive.
Today everyone has a smartphone, with a minimum 3G connection to the Internet. and they communicate through the Internet through wsapp, telegram, etc.

Access to a second-hand smartphone is very easy, the African dash colleagues will be able to inform you about this, since the African population has mostly smartphones, and they have worse communication infrastructures.
If people use 'the perolito' is their decision, so I understand that they have 2 phones the Smartphone and 'the perolito', they must decide what to use according to their needs.

The matter is simple: a smartphone requires a level of training and that people are willing to be trained in the use of new technologies that involves having a pocket computer, and that is digital literacy, and in the world there are many people with a low level of training in digital skills.

The cost of sending a sms, can be 30-40 ctm of $ / eur, (similar to a bitcoin fee), which must be added the cost of the fee for the service to be self-sufficient and lasting over time and no flower for 3 months of treasury.

There are already projects in BTC and BCH of little success that cover this small market of use.
Ejem: https://cointext.io/regions/

In addition, they have support to several continents not only Venezuela (country), and if you do not support instandsend or privatesend, ('impossible' in sms txt) there is no competitive advantage.

Invest + of 100 tokens, when the treasury can have other international projects with a more interesting ROI I consider it to waste time and very scarce resources today.

It would be more interesting that from the support of Dash's Venezuela, you would promote the migration of your compatriots to smartphone, and if they steal your smartphone, a problem that can happen in Venezuela, USA, Brazil, UK, etc.
They Have training in recovering your wallet in another phone.


Thanks for your pre-proposal.

Hello blockchaintech, thanks for your comment, We wish everyone had a smartphone with a minimum 3g connectivity, but that is just not true, I don't know where did you get that information, smartphone penetration in Venezuela is at around 40% you can check the source in our proposal document. And 3g signal is bad in many many places, any Venezuelan or African can easily validate this. Some Venezuelans have validated that fact in this same thread.

Regarding the costs for SMS, the lowest SMS plan gives you 500 SMS, and costs for additional sms are at 30 VEF per sms, to put that into perspective, the Dash Network fee is at around 7000 VEF, so sms costs are not a concern.

Regarding similar projects for other coins, they charge extra fees (we will not), they haven't added Dash, they are not in Venezuela or Africa either. And this is definitely not a small market, as we have validated in our proposal, there are many people who can't use dash right now and they will be able to with Dash Text, but there are also many places where people who have dash can't use it due to signal reception or out of fear of getting mugged, with Dash Text they will be able to.

As stated previously, we support smartphone adoption initiatives, however this proposal gets you many more users and use cases for Dash than any smartphone initiative could get you for the same cost. It solves a big problem in a timely manner, it's convenient, easy, and it's a good first step for many people, like Sam Barbosa said, with Dash Text you'll be able to tip a friend some Dash to his phone number, without him needing to download anything.

We really hope to gain your support, thank you for taking the time to give us your feedback, we appreciate it greatly.

-Lorenzo Rey

 

[Dash Costas de Aragua]

(Y)

 

[dashameter]

Again I'm supporting your proposal and want to help think through it, when blockcypher holds the keys to the usersu dash but you hold the API keys to move the dash from the blockcyoher wallet, aren't you still in effective control of the Dash? How is that different from you holding the dash directly?

 

[LorenzoRey]

Again I'm supporting your proposal and want to help think through it, when blockcypher holds the keys to the usersu dash but you hold the API keys to move the dash from the blockcyoher wallet, aren't you still in effective control of the Dash? How is that different from you holding the dash directly?

Yeah totally, our system controls them thru the user commands. The difference is that the physical server where the keys are generated and from which transactions are broadcasted to the network is Blockcypher's.

-Lorenzo Rey

 

[blockchaintech]

Hello blockchaintech, thanks for your comment, We wish everyone had a smartphone with a minimum 3g connectivity, but that is just not true, I don't know where did you get that information, smartphone penetration in Venezuela is at around 40% you can check the source in our proposal document. And 3g signal is bad in many many places, any Venezuelan or African can easily validate this. Some Venezuelans have validated that fact in this same thread.

Regarding the costs for SMS, the lowest SMS plan gives you 500 SMS, and costs for additional sms are at 30 VEF per sms, to put that into perspective, the Dash Network fee is at around 7000 VEF, so sms costs are not a concern.

Regarding similar projects for other coins, they charge extra fees (we will not), they haven't added Dash, they are not in Venezuela or Africa either. And this is definitely not a small market, as we have validated in our proposal, there are many people who can't use dash right now and they will be able to with Dash Text, but there are also many places where people who have dash can't use it due to signal reception or out of fear of getting mugged, with Dash Text they will be able to.

As stated previously, we support smartphone adoption initiatives, however this proposal gets you many more users and use cases for Dash than any smartphone initiative could get you for the same cost. It solves a big problem in a timely manner, it's convenient, easy, and it's a good first step for many people, like Sam Barbosa said, with Dash Text you'll be able to tip a friend some Dash to his phone number, without him needing to download anything.

We really hope to gain your support, thank you for taking the time to give us your feedback, we appreciate it greatly.

-Lorenzo Rey

Lorenzo, obviously I spoke in a study in global terms, not in a specific country, since dash is global. Maybe I expressed myself badly, or that you misunderstood me.

The worldwide decline of GSM technology, based on the new LTE wireless connection technologies, means that creating investments that depend on technologies that are going to have a reduced use, is not the best option for investment and growth.

I do not see ROI creating this type of investments in local infrastructure, (as it is) that:

a) It can only be exploited in a geographical area
b) It does not have a road map of self-sufficiency, which without funds from the dash treasury, would not be viable over time.

In all the countries there are dark zones of GSM coverage, since the communications operators install antennas where they estimate that it is profitable. And everywhere there is a risk of theft.

And we continue with the problem of not being able to use neither instandsend or privatesend, which is disruptive in Dash. And more, when in the future the default shipping protocol can be instandsend.

I still think, that the focus is to train people in the use of Dash in smartphone, globally, from LATAM, USA, EU, etc.

And that you should focus on maintaining and expanding the opportunity offered to be the first Spanish-speaking global support call center (Latam, Spain).

It is my opinion.

 

[GrandMasterDash]

@LorenzoRey Unfortunately, it seems you have spent so much time thinking how to do dash over SMS, that you are unable to let go of it and pivot to a new strategy.

I recently heard an example - I think it was The Crypto Show - where Internet coverage was working better / more reliably than SMS. Okay, so it wasn't Venezuela but the idea is the same; that telecos are making such priorities.

With progress, poor countries often skip certain technological milestones. For example, people skipping black and white television and going directly to color. Or skipping DSL services and going direct to 4g.

Now, I get that you are thinking pragmatically, that you can be up and running quickly.. but equally, I believe this time next year we'll be seeing 50 or 60% smartphone penetration. And I also feel that you are balancing an argument where, on the one hand, slow / stagnant smartphone adoption is hindering dash growth... while equally seeking funds for a Venezuela project knowing full well we've seen great progress there. Show me evidence that other Venezuelan projects are faltering due to lack of smartphones.

 

[LorenzoRey]

@LorenzoRey Unfortunately, it seems you have spent so much time thinking how to do dash over SMS, that you are unable to let go of it and pivot to a new strategy.

I recently heard an example - I think it was The Crypto Show - where Internet coverage was working better / more reliably than SMS. Okay, so it wasn't Venezuela but the idea is the same; that telecos are making such priorities.

With progress, poor countries often skip certain technological milestones. For example, people skipping black and white television and going directly to color. Or skipping DSL services and going direct to 4g.

Now, I get that you are thinking pragmatically, that you can be up and running quickly.. but equally, I believe this time next year we'll be seeing 50 or 60% smartphone penetration. And I also feel that you are balancing an argument where, on the one hand, slow / stagnant smartphone adoption is hindering dash growth... while equally seeking funds for a Venezuela project knowing full well we've seen great progress there. Show me evidence that other Venezuelan projects are faltering due to lack of smartphones.

Hello again GrandMasterDash, me and my team are part and collaborate with many Venezuelan projects, they are not faltering, this proposal is not here to compensate for the failures of others, it just opens up a market where we had no access to before, and all other projects can benefit from this. A similar case is our Dash Help - Support Center, we receive calls everyday, we offer live chat and ticket support on our website as well, but the thing we receive the most are calls, traditional phone calls, you might also think phone calls are a thing of the past and not worth investing in them anymore, and we can agree with you that the future is internet based and traditional phone calls and SMS will eventually die. But it will still take many years, specially in countries like ours, and during these years, traditional solutions are still very effective and help a lot of people. Aditionally, you can always make a product evolve into more modern solutions over the years, Dash Text doesn't have to be SMS only for ever, it can evolve into internet based chat apps, who knows?

We understand if you still do not want to support us, you have your views and we respect them, we can agree to disagree, and we really appreciate the time you take here to give us your opinion.

-Lorenzo Rey

 

[GrandMasterDash]

Hello again GrandMasterDash, me and my team are part and collaborate with many Venezuelan projects, they are not faltering, this proposal is not here to compensate for the failures of others, it just opens up a market where we had no access to before, and all other projects can benefit from this. A similar case is our Dash Help - Support Center, we receive calls everyday, we offer live chat and ticket support on our website as well, but the thing we receive the most are calls, traditional phone calls, you might also think phone calls are a thing of the past and not worth investing in them anymore, and we can agree with you that the future is internet based and traditional phone calls and SMS will eventually die. But it will still take many years, specially in countries like ours, and during these years, traditional solutions are still very effective and help a lot of people. Aditionally, you can always make a product evolve into more modern solutions over the years, Dash Text doesn't have to be SMS only for ever, it can evolve into internet based chat apps, who knows?

We understand if you still do not want to support us, you have your views and we respect them, we can agree to disagree, and we really appreciate the time you take here to give us your opinion.

-Lorenzo Rey

Actually, I support the voice helpline.

 

[Bernardo Aceituno Cabezas]

Excellent proposal guys! Venezuela really needs alternative methods of payment and SMS technology is an excellent tool for this. I'm really looking forward to seeing this technology adopted in our daily basis. These SMS wallets can really become a game changer.

- Bernardo Aceituno C.

 

[dashameter]

Yeah totally, our system controls them thru the user commands. The difference is that the physical server where the keys are generated and from which transactions are broadcasted to the network is Blockcypher's.

-Lorenzo Rey

to

So the question remains, why do you not need a money transmitter / money service bureau / banking licence when you control the users funds via API keys instead of the private keys? Seems like the same thing to me, in other words why pay blockcypher when you can just ran a node yourself ? There are probably obvious legal reasons, I'd really love to understand those ..

 

[LorenzoRey]

to

So the question remains, why do you not need a money transmitter / money service bureau / banking licence when you control the users funds via API keys instead of the private keys? Seems like the same thing to me, in other words why pay blockcypher when you can just ran a node yourself ? There are probably obvious legal reasons, I'd really love to understand those ..

From a legal standpoint there is probably a big difference between handling funds in your own severs versus paying a 3rd party to do so, even tho you have API keys to effectively handle the funds. However in venezuela you only need a license if you're an exchange, even if we were running our own nodes to handle these wallets we wouldn't need a license atm.

The reason for using Blockcypher is that they are a respected company with a proven record of blockchain services, they can handle a lot of traffic reliably, and are allies to Dash, so we think it is wiser to use a respected provider than to build our own node servers with all the added costs associated and all the hassle and maintenance. Same reason why we hire an SMS provider, doesn't make sense to build our own SMS company and start putting antennas around the country haha

-Lorenzo Rey

 

[solarguy]

This will approximately double the number of people who can use Dash in Venezuela. It also looks like a good pilot project for how to spread Dash into the rest of Latin America. And, relatively speaking, this is a cheap proposal from a proven team with professional looking promo materials. Easy yes for me. I suspect the SMS/dumb phone method will be useful for a significant percent of the population in Venezuela for the next three years. So two or three years down the road, it won't matter if this method becomes obsolete, Dash will be the overwhelming winner in Venezuela at that point anyway.

Does your economic model require modest levels of on-going support or does it become self sustaining after 90 days? I'm still a yes either way, just want to know the details.

Full speed ahead in Venezuela.

 

[GrandMasterDash]

1. As you know, one of dash's main aims is to be as simple and error free as possible. How does this service promote a good user experience when users are expected to accurately type phone numbers in order to send dash?

2. What is the procedure for reversing payments when a user invariably sends dash to the wrong number?

3. How can we be sure that users funds are being managed correctly?

 

[LorenzoRey]

**UPDATE REGARDING SECURITY**

Seeing the overwhelming response of the community regarding security, we have decided that we can do more. We are in talks with a respected cyber-security firm who will be tasked to supervise the setting up of the project, and will try to break its security in different ways to validate if it's secure enough and if not, do the necessary changes to guarantee maximum security. This is a measure that we had thought about doing after the product was already released, understanding that we would not be handling much funds in the beginning, but we have listened to people's opinions and comments and we agree with your concerns, they are valid and we are taking the necessary steps to improve security as much as possible since these early stages, and we are fully committed to keep improving in this regard.

We are also contacting BlockCypher, the blockchain solutions company whose APIs we are using to bring this product to life, in order to let them know about this project and to get their feedback and advise, both in security and in the best use of their tools.

We want to help as many people as we can, by making Dash easily accessible to them, and we will keep working tirelessly to make this project a reality. We are so thankful for so many positive feedback we have received, and all the suggestions and concerns, can't be happier to be part of this community! Please keep supporting us!​

-Lorenzo Rey​