Pre-Proposal: ''Dash Chat''

[fernando]

@fernandoStill, I defer to your judgement.Pablo.

Lol, I have no judgement Just giving my opinion, but @Roberto Julio Azar has already done the proposal, so now it is for the masternodes to decide!

Btw, you and I have talked other times about support, I'll send you a pm about that because it would be great to (also) get you involved with what we are planning.

 

[Roberto Julio Azar]

Lol, I have no judgement Just giving my opinion, but @Roberto Julio Azar has already done the proposal, so now it is for the masternodes to decide!

Btw, you and I have talked other times about support, I'll send you a pm about that because it would be great to (also) get you involved with what we are planning.

Sure, great! If you'd like we can schedule a voice call or a video call to discuss the details. By the way, I received a reply from Evan Duffield regarding Dash Chat, where he says, quote: '' Hello Roberto, thanks so much for messaging me. Your proposal is quite in line with where I see the project going and wouldn't mind something like this being implemented into our site. However, I don't really like the idea of trying to convert people directly, but someone that's available to answer questions about Dash and cryptographic currency, would be an amazing thing. In fact I have wanted to implement this type of service into evolution directly... so this is a good milestone toward the ultimate vision I think.''

I just didn't explain myself properly by what I meant by converting... I just meant converting Bitcoin/altcoin users to start using Dash! I meanly refer to this process as ''recruitment'' in my documentation for Dash Chat.

Anyways, let me know when you'd like to talk, I'm available any time. Hope to hear from you soon!

 

[fible1]

Lol, I have no judgement Just giving my opinion, but @Roberto Julio Azar has already done the proposal, so now it is for the masternodes to decide!

Btw, you and I have talked other times about support, I'll send you a pm about that because it would be great to (also) get you involved with what we are planning.

At your disposal .

Pablo.

 

[AndyDark]

Hi guys! I am really excited about presenting this project to you all.
This is a Live Chat project proposal for www.dash.org


Please take some minutes to go over all the documentation, I am sure you will like what you find! I would highly appreciate it if you give some constructive criticism after you’ve gone through all the documentation so that we can make this project a reality.


Please go over the material below to get a better understanding of what the ‘’Dash Chat’’ project has to offer.

1. The Dash Chat proposal document: https://goo.gl/LxXVxu
   
   
2. Dash Chat presentational video: https://goo.gl/DNKgUD
   
   
3. Dash Chat Policy folder: https://goo.gl/DC0PsJ
   
   
4. Dash Chat Quality Assurance video 1: https://goo.gl/UlR5GS
   
   
5. Dash Chat Quality Assurance video 2: https://goo.gl/eqvMDy
   
   Note: All these files are in Google Drive, you don’t need a gmail account to access them. You may access them from any browser. Kindly let me know if you’d like to receive another format of the documentation, such as PDF or a word file. I know my screencasting/voice over skills aren’t that great but the main thing is to focus on the project itself by reading all the documentation. Thank you!

the proposal doc needs a Google login and then ask permission from you, which means you get to see the users here's emails...., why is that necessary just to share a proposal?

haven't read it, but my initial concern from reading here would be - enabling a 3rd party to control a live chat through official dash.org...and why is it necessary - i tried join.me as a webex alternatively recently and they are now hounding me wanting a call to buy an account. for Evo the idea is that it's so easy to use you don't need this kind of help...seems like a weird thing to have on the official site of a cryptocurrency to me. will wait until i read it anyway

 

[Roberto Julio Azar]

the proposal doc needs a Google login and then ask permission from you, which means you get to see the users here's emails...., why is that necessary just to share a proposal?

haven't read it, but my initial concern from reading here would be - enabling a 3rd party to control a live chat through official dash.org...and why is it necessary - i tried join.me as a webex alternatively recently and they are now hounding me wanting a call to buy an account. for Evo the idea is that it's so easy to use you don't need this kind of help...seems like a weird thing to have on the official site of a cryptocurrency to me. will wait until i read it anyway

Hey Andy! Thanks for your reply. The proposal is live here: https://www.dashcentral.org/p/Dash-Chat
You don't need to sign in to view the documentation I provided and I don't need to have access to your Emails. You can try opening the links with a private browser. Perhaps the issue was you tried opening the links I provided for the pre-proposal but I changed those already because I made the needed modifications to make the proposal.

Here are the two documents:

1) ‘’Dash Chat’’ proposal document: https://goo.gl/OQIvgY

2) Dash Chat Policy folder: https://goo.gl/DC0PsJ
Within the Dash Chat Policy folder, I recommend reading Policy files 3.0 -3.9

I didn't quite understand what your concerns were regarding having a 3rd party livechat software on dash.org can you please elaborate on that so I can try my best to answer your concerns?

 

[AndyDark]

Hey Andy! Thanks for your reply. The proposal is live here: https://www.dashcentral.org/p/Dash-Chat
You don't need to sign in to view the documentation I provided and I don't need to have access to your Emails. You can try opening the links with a private browser. Perhaps the issue was you tried opening the links I provided for the pre-proposal but I changed those already because I made the needed modifications to make the proposal.

Here are the two documents:

1) ‘’Dash Chat’’ proposal document: https://goo.gl/OQIvgY

2) Dash Chat Policy folder: https://goo.gl/DC0PsJ
Within the Dash Chat Policy folder, I recommend reading Policy files 3.0 -3.9

I didn't quite understand what your concerns were regarding having a 3rd party livechat software on dash.org can you please elaborate on that so I can try my best to answer your concerns?

Hi - thanks, read it now.

My point above was just that it's potentially an attack vector having a 3rd party (DashChat) access to the dash.org homepage to engage users directly. You say "our agents will be able to answer basic tech questions unless they are qualified to answer more detailed technical questions" so who are these agents? How do we control or even know what they are saying to Dash.org visitors? How to we ban bad ones? A lot of things could go wrong with this from scamming users of funds to bad info to putting people off Dash. IMO Dash.org really shouldn't have any user generated content on it, i was pro-dashtalk and not the move here, dash.org should be just a lightweight static info site as an entry point to Dash as a whole, and the main functions coming with Evolution - signing up users to Dash network directly.

Second if an organization (delivering a mass market product like ours) needs staff to engage new users individually to be able to use it or convert it, it's pretty obvious that product is badly designed / uncompetitive and those economics just don't add up. So yes, 100% of cryptocurrencies would benefit from this right now - but this is the whole reason why we are building Evolution, by make cryptos work like systems users already know how to use without needing one on one chat (online banking, paypal, etc) so I would say this is the wrong direction to be going in / use of resources - e.g. spend those funds on additional Evo developers to build the product sooner that doesn't need this one-on-one help.

Just my thoughts anyway

Andy

 

[Roberto Julio Azar]

Hi - thanks, read it now.

My point above was just that it's potentially an attack vector having a 3rd party (DashChat) access to the dash.org homepage to engage users directly. You say "our agents will be able to answer basic tech questions unless they are qualified to answer more detailed technical questions" so who are these agents? How do we control or even know what they are saying to Dash.org visitors? How to we ban bad ones? A lot of things could go wrong with this from scamming users of funds to bad info to putting people off Dash. IMO Dash.org really shouldn't have any user generated content on it, i was pro-dashtalk and not the move here, dash.org should be just a lightweight static info site as an entry point to Dash as a whole, and the main functions coming with Evolution - signing up users to Dash network directly.

Second if an organization (delivering a mass market product like ours) needs staff to engage new users individually to be able to use it or convert it, it's pretty obvious that product is badly designed / uncompetitive and those economics just don't add up. So yes, 100% of cryptocurrencies would benefit from this right now - but this is the whole reason why we are building Evolution, by make cryptos work like systems users already know how to use without needing one on one chat (online banking, paypal, etc) so I would say this is the wrong direction to be going in / use of resources - e.g. spend those funds on additional Evo developers to build the product sooner that doesn't need this one-on-one help.

Just my thoughts anyway

Andy

It's okay Andy, we can all have different opinions. But let me answer some of your questions.

(1) LiveChatinc will not randomly come to our website and engage with our visitors, they are a respectable company.
(2) We will start with a few volunteers such as:

1. Fible1 - Ticketing System
2. Splawik21 - Live Chat Agent
3. mranderson010
4. oaxaca

The rest of volunteers will be acquired through this Google Forms application: https://goo.gl/forms/owHJRfpW1OS0YerM2

We will do our best to evaluate all the candidates and test their knowledge of Dash. Also, the chat transcripts will be read and reviewed. It's part of the Quality Assurance tasks, did you have a chance to read up on that yet?

 

[TroyDASH]

Hi - thanks, read it now.

My point above was just that it's potentially an attack vector having a 3rd party (DashChat) access to the dash.org homepage to engage users directly. You say "our agents will be able to answer basic tech questions unless they are qualified to answer more detailed technical questions" so who are these agents? How do we control or even know what they are saying to Dash.org visitors? How to we ban bad ones? A lot of things could go wrong with this from scamming users of funds to bad info to putting people off Dash. IMO Dash.org really shouldn't have any user generated content on it, i was pro-dashtalk and not the move here, dash.org should be just a lightweight static info site as an entry point to Dash as a whole, and the main functions coming with Evolution - signing up users to Dash network directly.

Second if an organization (delivering a mass market product like ours) needs staff to engage new users individually to be able to use it or convert it, it's pretty obvious that product is badly designed / uncompetitive and those economics just don't add up. So yes, 100% of cryptocurrencies would benefit from this right now - but this is the whole reason why we are building Evolution, by make cryptos work like systems users already know how to use without needing one on one chat (online banking, paypal, etc) so I would say this is the wrong direction to be going in / use of resources - e.g. spend those funds on additional Evo developers to build the product sooner that doesn't need this one-on-one help.

Just my thoughts anyway

Andy

Some of your concerns I think are addressed by the vetting of the chat agents, and the reviewability of all chats for performance evaluation. Not just anyone would be allowed to be an agent, I assume that it will actually be a fairly small pool of individuals, and they will need to be evaluated to have a sufficient understanding of dash, and demonstrate a comprehension of all of the outlined policies and procedures that Roberto has in place which are actually quite extensive.

From what I am understanding, Roberto is volunteering to take charge of the QA piece which is undoubtedly a critical element for this to work.

I share your concerns on some of the other points, but I don't see these as critical flaws. I am always thinking the dash team needs to keep bringing more people in, to encourage and leverage even more volunteer work that is waiting out there, and this might be one of those ways, so I'll be supporting the proposal. Looking forward to more discussion on this as well as any other solutions you guys are working on to enhance the user experience..

 

[AndyDark]

It's okay Andy, we can all have different opinions. But let me answer some of your questions.

(1) LiveChatinc will not randomly come to our website and engage with our visitors, they are a respectable company.
(2) We will start with a few volunteers such as:

1. Fible1 - Ticketing System
2. Splawik21 - Live Chat Agent
3. mranderson010
4. oaxaca

The rest of volunteers will be acquired through this Google Forms application: https://goo.gl/forms/owHJRfpW1OS0YerM2

We will do our best to evaluate all the candidates and test their knowledge of Dash. Also, the chat transcripts will be read and reviewed. It's part of the Quality Assurance tasks, did you have a chance to read up on that yet?

Ok thanks, so you will be the person controlling who has direct access to dash.org visitors and reading all the transcripts.

Problem is, you are a new account less than a month old and completely anonymous. And alarm bells already went off for me already when rather than just post your proposal as text you use a method that gives you access to every forum user's email. (You could be totally legit of course, but seems like a lot of trust / control is being given here)

Community - giving random anonymous people with no history control of a direct line to talk to your new user base from your main homepage on the internet is potentially disastrous. Please stop and think about all the ways this could go wrong if 'trust' is broken.

 

[Roberto Julio Azar]

Ok thanks, so you will be the person controlling who has direct access to dash.org visitors and reading all the transcripts.

Problem is, you are a new account less than a month old and completely anonymous. And alarm bells already went off for me already when rather than just post your proposal as text you use a method that gives you access to every forum user's email. (You could be totally legit of course, but seems like a lot of trust / control is being given here)

Community - giving random anonymous people with no history control of a direct line to talk to your new user base from your main homepage on the internet is potentially disastrous. Please stop and think about all the ways this could go wrong if 'trust' is broken.

I didn't say that I will be the only person working on Dash Chat or checking the chat transcripts. I want you to know that there are tools that I thought of to make sure that no policies are broken, if you'd like you can be a part of Dash Chat if the proposal were to be approved. I do however promise 100% transparancy and Dash Chat agents can have access to all the chats that take place in dash.org

I don't have access to your emails. I never requested access to them either. You can open the files in an anonymous browser, in fact, no one even needs to have an email address to access the documentation I provided. The reason why I did things the way I did was because I didn't want to bombard this post with a lot of text which I included in the documentation.

You do not need to trust me in order for Dash Chat to work, you would need to trust the majority or part of the Dash Chat members, that is because they will all have access to what is taking place within Dash Chat.

In one of your previous replies you mentioned, quote: "Second if an organization (delivering a mass market product like ours) needs staff to engage new users individually to be able to use it or convert it, it's pretty obvious that product is badly designed / uncompetitive and those economics just don't add up."

Let me explain Dash Chat in another way so perhaps you get a better understanding of what I intend for Dash Chat... Think about a conference taking place to promote Dash, similar to the one that Juan Galt delivered a while back... What was the purpose of this conference? To promote Dash, right? Now, the same applies to Dash Chat, it is a form of promoting Dash but in a different method, via chat. However, to maximize agent work activity they may also answer basic tech questions.

If you'd like you can participate in Dash Chat for as long as you'd like to witness first-hand that nothing immoral is taking place. Not only that, but believe me, if something wrong does happen, it is just a matter of time until it becomes evident to everyone, that's just a rule of life.

@AndyDark @TroyDASH @fernando @fible1

 

[AndyDark]

I didn't say that I will be the only person working on Dash Chat or checking the chat transcripts. I want you to know that there are tools that I thought of to make sure that no policies are broken, if you'd like you can be a part of Dash Chat if the proposal were to be approved. I do however promise 100% transparancy and Dash Chat agents can have access to all the chats that take place in dash.org

I don't have access to your emails. I never requested access to them either. You can open the files in an anonymous browser, in fact, no one even needs to have an email address to access the documentation I provided. The reason why I did things the way I did was because I didn't want to bombard this post with a lot of text which I included in the documentation.

You do not need to trust me in order for Dash Chat to work, you would need to trust the majority or part of the Dash Chat members, that is because they will all have access to what is taking place within Dash Chat.

In one of your previous replies you mentioned, quote: "Second if an organization (delivering a mass market product like ours) needs staff to engage new users individually to be able to use it or convert it, it's pretty obvious that product is badly designed / uncompetitive and those economics just don't add up."

Let me explain Dash Chat in another way so perhaps you get a better understanding of what I intend for Dash Chat... Think about a conference taking place to promote Dash, similar to the one that Juan Galt delivered a while back... What was the purpose of this conference? To promote Dash, right? Now, the same applies to Dash Chat, it is a form of promoting Dash but in a different method, via chat. However, to maximize agent work activity they may also answer basic tech questions.

If you'd like you can participate in Dash Chat for as long as you'd like to witness first-hand that nothing immoral is taking place. Not only that, but believe me, if something wrong does happen, it is just a matter of time until it becomes evident to everyone, that's just a rule of life.

@AndyDark @TroyDASH @fernando @fible1

Main issue for me is like I said giving individual users (some of whom we know, some of whom we won't) a direct line to intercept visitors to dash.org and speak with them. Malicious actors could do all kinds of things including scamming users of funds e.g. user: I can't access my funds dash rep: ok just pop me your HD seed words here or email me your wallet.dat and i'll help'.

In a centralized org, this can be controlled pretty well. But in a decentralized / open source project like Dash, we can't control this effectively.

And with Evolution, that page is going to be converting users to signup who can then go to any Evo web/mobile client and login / use the system. The content on the page should achieve that I personally don't like when sales people popup and try to engage, it's seems like the overselling like i said.

I guess I am protective of that page because again with Evolution it's going to become really important for mass adoption in the future. Having a 3rd party organizing other 3rd parties to have a direct line to speak with users just seems like a really exploitable path for me that could potentially undermine the whole loop of: users hear about Dash / search / land on dash.org / convert - having random people added into that loop that can say whatever they want seems like a bad idea generally.

Why not just setup another site doing this? Why does it have to be on the main page - if something went wrong, that reflects on the whole Dash community / software / ecosystem, so I don't see why to take that risk.

I can't really say more than that on it, just wanted to voice my opinions because we (Evo developers) have plans for the dash.org page and it fits into a larger strategy and that's all static content based no user generated or potentially exploitable paths into that.

Cheers, Andy

 

[UdjinM6]

I agree with some concerns here: just imagine PayPal having live conversations with their customers - it neither safe ((accidential) revealing payment info to some "chat person"/3-rd party service), nor scalable (serving 100s of live requests simultaneously).

 

[Roberto Julio Azar]

I agree with some concerns here: just imagine PayPal having live conversations with their customers - it neither safe ((accidential) revealing payment info to some "chat person"/3-rd party service), nor scalable (serving 100s of live requests simultaneously).

I understand your concerns. However, the agents are not allowed to request any sensitive information and the purpose of Dash Chat is mainly to promote Dash. Every chat that takes place within Dash Chat will be reviewed, especially in the beginning phases of the project. What do you mean by revealing payment info?
Also, I can imagine PayPal having live conversation with their customers. I've spoken with their representatives over the phone several times. https://www.paypal.com/us/selfhelp/contact/call You can click on ''call us as a guest'' to get their phone number to speak to a live agent, one-one conversation.
Each agent of Dash Chat would only handle up to 3 live chats simultaneously, more than that is just not possible to ensure chat quality to the visitors.

 

[UdjinM6]

I understand your concerns. However, the agents are not allowed to request any sensitive information and the purpose of Dash Chat is mainly to promote Dash. Every chat that takes place within Dash Chat will be reviewed, especially in the beginning phases of the project. What do you mean by revealing payment info?
Also, I can imagine PayPal having live conversation with their customers. I've spoken with their representatives over the phone several times. https://www.paypal.com/us/selfhelp/contact/call You can click on ''call us as a guest'' to get their phone number to speak to a live agent, one-one conversation.
Each agent would only handle up to 3 live chats simultaneously, more than that is just not possible to ensure chat quality to the visitors.

That's exactly why services like banking and PayPal are expensive - you create centralized points of storing/accessing user info (i.e. points of failure) and you have to secure/review them all the time

 

[Roberto Julio Azar]

That's exactly why services like banking and PayPal are expensive - you create centralized points of storing/accessing user info (i.e. points of failure) and you have to secure/review them all the time

Yes, PayPal might be expensive, however they do deliver a great service. Especially with their live support.
You should also note that I only requested 23 Dash for the project, I do not feel that is expensive at all. Imagine all the potential new users we can bring to the Dash community through the efforts of Dash Chat agents?
I still think there is little to lose and potentially a lot to gain. Why not test it out? You yourself are a Core Developer and Moderator. I would be delighted if you support Dash Chat and offer some of your time moderate and improve the Dash Chat service.

 

[UdjinM6]

Yes, PayPal might be expensive, however they do deliver a great service. Especially with their live support.
You should also note that I only requested 23 Dash for the project, I do not feel that is expensive at all. Imagine all the potential new users we can bring to the Dash community through the efforts of Dash Chat agents?
I still think there is little to lose and potentially a lot to gain. Why not test it out? You yourself are a Core Developer and Moderator. I would be delighted if you support Dash Chat and offer some of your time moderate and improve the Dash Chat service.

Yep, given the fact that @fible1 and @splawik21 are going to participate I'm not _that_ worried actually

 

[AndyDark]

Yes, PayPal might be expensive, however they do deliver a great service. Especially with their live support.
You should also note that I only requested 23 Dash for the project, I do not feel that is expensive at all. Imagine all the potential new users we can bring to the Dash community through the efforts of Dash Chat agents?
I still think there is little to lose and potentially a lot to gain. Why not test it out? You yourself are a Core Developer and Moderator. I would be delighted if you support Dash Chat and offer some of your time moderate and improve the Dash Chat service.

The primary issue for me is not the cost or that there would be a live chat on dash.org.

It's that that facility will be controlled by yourself as an anonymous person who first appeared in the Dash community less than 2 weeks ago.

Imagine if you raised this proposal with PayPal - you would run a chat service on their homepage for them that would represent the official voice of PayPal and gain access to large % of their unique visitors?

Basically, if this proposal passes and a new/anonymous user can run this service with an Official title on our most important page, just sounds obviously not a smart move to me.

Why do you want official status for your service and run it on the dash.org homepage? Can't you offer this as an unofficial service?

 

[Roberto Julio Azar]

The primary issue for me is not the cost or that there would be a live chat on dash.org.

It's that that facility will be controlled by yourself as an anonymous person who first appeared in the Dash community less than 2 weeks ago.

Imagine if you raised this proposal with PayPal - you would run a chat service on their homepage for them that would represent the official voice of PayPal and gain access to large % of their unique visitors?

Basically, if this proposal passes and a new/anonymous user can run this service with an Official title on our most important page, just sounds obviously not a smart move to me.

Why do you want official status for your service and run it on the dash.org homepage? Can't you offer this as an unofficial service?

It doesn't have to be controlled by me. If you notice in the Dash Chat volunteer application, one of the positions an applicant can apply for is ''Dash Chat Manager''. I would be happy working as just an agent under the leadership of someone like yourself or a core member Dash. The reason why I suggested the live chat to be in the main website is because that is the first place a new and potential user of Dash might turn to for support, information and guidance on his journey.

I can apply for a job for PayPal if I wanted to, they can either agree to hire me or disagree and not hire me. The same goes with my proposal to the treasury, the MN owners can either vote yes to the proposal or vote no to the proposal =)

 

[AndyDark]

Yep, given the fact that @fible1 and @splawik21 are going to participate I'm not _that_ worried actually

Me too, but if the proposer is the one controlling it and access to the info and no one else, that can change pretty easy. Not accusing them of anything (obviously as i don't know them) just saying it's centralized control over something really key / valuable with where it's going to be located and what it's doing. Would create an awkward relationship - official website with a live chat box by a 3rd party inserted on the page we have no idea who they are - bad idea for me.

 

[AndyDark]

It doesn't have to be controlled by me. If you notice in the Dash Chat volunteer application, one of the positions an applicant can apply for is ''Dash Chat Manager''. I would be happy working as just an agent. The reason why I suggested the live chat to be in the main website is because that is the first place a new and potential user of Dash might turn to for support, information and guidance on his journey.

I can apply for a job for PayPal if I wanted to, they can either agree to hire me or disagree and not hire me. The same goes with my proposal to the treasury, the MN owners can either vote yes to the proposal or vote no to the proposal =)

The control is really whoever had the login to LiveChat Inc right, https://www.livechatinc.com/, outside of dash.org operators removing the chat from the page? How would you see that side of it working?