Pre-Proposal: Adaptive Proposal Fees

[GrandMasterDash]

@demo

If we accepted a demo endorsed fee structure, someone else would come along and say otherwise. And all for what, a very extreme example? Who's to say that the extreme examples you invent might actually shake things up in general e.g. getting more people to vote, or lead the way to finding a lower / higher price. The answer to that is unknown. I would much rather have a simple solution than spending a lifetime looking for the perfection you'll never find.

In all likelihood, the fee will be voted from 0.1 to 5 dash. and I'm just not going to quibble about 0.5 difference

Given MNOs are being paid to make decisions, I don''t think it's much to ask that they also make such decisions every month.

 

[demo]

@demo

If we accepted a demo endorsed fee structure, someone else would come along and say otherwise. And all for what, a very extreme example? Who's to say that the extreme examples you invent might actually shake things up in general e.g. getting more people to vote, or lead the way to finding a lower / higher price. The answer to that is unknown. I would much rather have a simple solution than spending a lifetime looking for the perfection you'll never find.

In all likelihood, the fee will be voted from 0.1 to 5 dash. and I'm just not going to quibble about 0.5 difference

Given MNOs are being paid to make decisions, I don''t think it's much to ask that they also make such decisions every month.

In that case why dont you use the mean average?
In your closed example, where everyone votes reasonable, the mean average is a much more fair selection process than the median one.

 

[GrandMasterDash]

In that case why dont you use the mean average?
In your closed example, where everyone votes reasonable, the mean average is a much more fair selection process than the median one.

Just one person voting for 100000 dash fee would have an impact. You could put in limits but then that would be finding a solution to a problem you just created. With the median, one or two people could try an outragious proposal fee and it would have zero impact.

 

[demo]

5. The two selection processes have big difference, so let them converge.
How do you tell whether they have a big difference? Define big difference. Is there a cutoff where anything above is a big difference, and anything below is not?

Example:
2000 votes for 0.1 dash
1900 votes for 1 dash
2001 votes for 5 dash

The mode in your average variation 2 is still 5 dash.

I dont judge their difference. I have already told you the way I converge the mode average with the mean average. I progressively cut the decimals. Thats the method.

But in you example, even if I cut the decimals, a converge is not possible. Are you looking forward to hearing how I converge the mode average to the medium average?

I dont know yet. I will think about it, and if found an answer I will tell you.

 

[demo]

With the median, one or two people could try an outragious proposal fee and it would have zero impact.

It is the same with the mode average. One or two people trying an outragious proposal has zero impact.

The important thing is to let the voters see the number votes of the others and let them change their number vote whenever they wish. In worst case let them use the double vote (number, selection process) and give them the right to change the prefered selection process also, whenever they wish.

In the worst case of the median average, if the voters are polarized, then they will change their vote towards the middle in order not to let the middle voter (1.0001) to choose whatever he wants. There is also the risk for the numerous edge voters to give bribery to the few middle voters.

In the worst case of my mode average variation version 2 , the people who are close enough (0.1, 1) they will unite eachother in order not to let the most loved number (5) to pass. The association is the most possible scenario and the bridery is not as possible as it is in the worst case of the median average.

Both worst cases are rare but I think the polarization is more probable to happen, thus it is more possible for the median average to fail. Let the Statisticians do their research now, and reveal us which worst case is more probable.

 

[priestc]

My solution to this problem is to fix the proposal fee to a fiat amount. Say $50. The next problem is how does the protocol enforce an exchange rate? You could institute an official "dash exchange rate" by taking a vote from master node owners to select the official exchanges whose current market price make up the official exchange rate. For instance, one master node could vote "bittrex,poloniex", while another could vote "poloniex, btce". To get the current price you gather everyone's votes and created a index out of the weighted average of each exchange's market price. Sort of like the winkdex, but with master nodes voting on the sources of the index.

 

[Technologov]

I like this idea actually.

 

[GrandMasterDash]

My solution to this problem is to fix the proposal fee to a fiat amount. Say $50. The next problem is how does the protocol enforce an exchange rate? You could institute an official "dash exchange rate" by taking a vote from master node owners to select the official exchanges whose current market price make up the official exchange rate. For instance, one master node could vote "bittrex,poloniex", while another could vote "poloniex, btce". To get the current price you gather everyone's votes and created a index out of the weighted average of each exchange's market price. Sort of like the winkdex, but with master nodes voting on the sources of the index.

Nice idea if you believe in fiat, in which case, why are you in crypto? What happens if the US dollar hyper-inflates / becomes volatile, or your preferred currency is EUR, GBP, CNY, YEN? If we had to denominate in something else, I would rather ask, "how many grams of gold would you give me for this dash?" But ultimately, it's far easier and less subjective if we simply denominate in dash.

 

[priestc]

I only "believe" in fiat because I have to pay my rent, elecricity, water bill, groceries, etc in fiat. When the day comes that USD hyperinflates, then such an index price will not be needed anymore. If USD hyperinflates, it'll be many years or even decades from now anyways. Most likely in the mean time, Dash is likely to be more volatile than USD, therefore pricing should be denominated in USD.

 

[dashly]

Or tie it to x ounces of silver

 

[raze]

Nice idea if you believe in fiat, in which case, why are you in crypto? What happens if the US dollar hyper-inflates / becomes volatile, or your preferred currency is EUR, GBP, CNY, YEN? If we had to denominate in something else, I would rather ask, "how many grams of gold would you give me for this dash?" But ultimately, it's far easier and less subjective if we simply denominate in dash.

Aren't we having a debate over proposal fees precisely because of fiat valuation? Unfortunately, Dash doesn't exist in a closed ecosystem (yet). Pegging the fee to something with low volatility, be it USD or something else, is far less subjective and more efficient than going through a new proposal process to play catch-up every time the price moves.

 

[GrandMasterDash]

I only "believe" in fiat because I have to pay my rent, elecricity, water bill, groceries, etc in fiat. When the day comes that USD hyperinflates, then such an index price will not be needed anymore. If USD hyperinflates, it'll be many years or even decades from now anyways. Most likely in the mean time, Dash is likely to be more volatile than USD, therefore pricing should be denominated in USD.

Too US centric, dash is global

 

[GrandMasterDash]

Aren't we having a debate over proposal fees precisely because of fiat valuation? Unfortunately, Dash doesn't exist in a closed ecosystem (yet). Pegging the fee to something with low volatility, be it USD or something else, is far less subjective and more efficient than going through a new proposal process to play catch-up every time the price moves.

Yeah, but your view of the US dollar comes from your personal location and circumstance. Try explaining this to a Chinese or Russian person and see how far you get. Everyone in their global location already knows how much their dash is worth. As an MNO, is it really that difficult to submit one command each month stating your preferred proposal fee? Denominating in dash keeps us all on the same page.

 

[GrandMasterDash]

Really, I'm beginning to think MNOs can't and won't decide shit. Someone has already put up their own money (twice!) to try and lower the price, no one else has bothered countering it with their own proposal because it's too expensive / they are too stingy. On the forums, fine, y'all going to argue the shit out of this. Oh yeah, you're going to have opinions when it's free, but none of you won't put up or shut up. Y'all going to start discussing the merits of denominating in US dollars or some shit but that's it, cheap useless words. Where is your proposal to crowd source USD values etc?

Dare not that you change from dash to usd / grams of gold etc. Dare not that you change from 5 dash to any other value. You all are making jokes of dash, you can't decide anything. That's why others are experimenting with governance in novel ways; decred, pivx etc. More inclusive, not just a few hundred MNOs too scared to try something new. What was so magical about 5 dash in the early days? Why is 5 still the magic number? You want to talk about high proposal fees to retain quality proposals... then fine, you're going to support a fee of 50 dash? - why not? And there was me thinking that this time next year, dash might be worth 10x and y'all going to be sitting there justifying a 10x fee increase. None of you can claim this to be true because none of you are willing to try any other value or approach.

 

[Vedran Yoweri]

Really, I'm beginning to think MNOs can't and won't decide shit.

Most ignore these desperate attempts.

Someone has already put up their own money (twice!) to try and lower the price

More to come i hope.

You all are making jokes of dash, you can't decide anything.

Ahh. the ranting phase. nice.

experimenting with governance in novel ways; decred, pivx etc.

Go man, go.

 

[GrandMasterDash]

Most ignore these desperate attempts.

More to come i hope.

Ahh. the ranting phase. nice.

Go man, go.

Put up or shut up. So far, the only people that have submitted governance proposals are Evan, myself and @Technologov

 

[dashly]

Put up or shut up. So far, the only people that have submitted governance proposals are Evan, myself and @Technologov

And I, for one, appreciate it. It takes balls at these prices.

I would vote "Yes" to a proposal fee that was created based on MN votes. As long as it took into account the outliers, like somebody voting 10000 Dash and it was also flexible enough to work with fractions.

I would also vote "Yes" to a proposal fee tied to a fixed price of fiat, say $50 USD... but I would prefer it to be tied to 3 oz of silver... That would more likely take into account inflation. So it could be conversion from silver prices to fiat to Dash. Different currencies could be used to get an average... (3*oz of silver in USD -> Dash, 3*oz of silver in CNY -> Dash, etc...)

 

[dashly]

So I did the math for 3 oz of silver using 2 base currencies... we could use more!

USD oz of silver = 18.00 (USD)
CNY oz of silver = 123.54 (CNY)

18*3=54 (USD)
123.54*3=370.62 (CNY)

Divide values by price of Dash in each respective currency.

54/72.18 = 0.748 Dash
370.62/418.03 = 0.887 Dash

Take the average and get 0.8175 Dash per proposal.

Now we have to deal with the issue of spam. This was discussed earlier in a different thread. For each 10 proposals submitted we could increase the proposal fee by 1/2 the initial proposal fee... So the 1-10 proposal would cost 0.8175 Dash, 11-20 would cost 1.22625 Dash, 21-30 would cost 1.635 Dash, etc... Obviously would take some coding work, but it would be a long term solution.

 

[GrandMasterDash]

And I, for one, appreciate it. It takes balls at these prices.

I would vote "Yes" to a proposal fee that was created based on MN votes. As long as it took into account the outliers, like somebody voting 10000 Dash and it was also flexible enough to work with fractions.

I would also vote "Yes" to a proposal fee tied to a fixed price of fiat, say $50 USD... but I would prefer it to be tied to 3 oz of silver... That would more likely take into account inflation. So it could be conversion from silver prices to fiat to Dash. Different currencies could be used to get an average... (3*oz of silver in USD -> Dash, 3*oz of silver in CNY -> Dash, etc...)

Thank you. Yes, if you look at how the median average works, a few outliers of, say, 1000 dash (or the other extreme of 0.1 dash) would not affect the overall result. Please see this link for a straight forward explanation; http://www.mathsisfun.com/median.html

Although I see some merit for dash fx rates, I feel this in itself opens up a whole other debate and yet another way to create indecision. At least with dash denominations, there is no direct external influence - I think we should just keep it simple.

I also feel, given MNOs are responsible for voting on these proposals, and they will in any case do so at least once a month, that it's a simple process to also vote on the proposal fee. More so, given sites like Dash Central make it quick and easy to vote, then I imagine integrating such feature would be relatively easy. For every person that is hard and fast on 5 dash proposal fees, then fine, they can continue to vote that amount. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding.

At this point, I just want someone from core to tell me this is reasonably feasible.

@UdjinM6 A new vote command could trigger a spork to modify the proposal fee each month?

 

[GrandMasterDash]

Now we have to deal with the issue of spam. This was discussed earlier in a different thread. For each 10 proposals submitted we could increase the proposal fee by 1/2 the initial proposal fee... So the 1-10 proposal would cost 0.8175 Dash, 11-20 would cost 1.22625 Dash, 21-30 would cost 1.635 Dash, etc... Obviously would take some coding work, but it would be a long term solution.

Sorry but it was brought to our attention this mechanism to prevent spam would not work, simply because an attacker could push the proposal fee up by buying up all the early proposals.

I think we just need to tackle this one step at a time. Personally, I would like to see a new fee structure in place for a few months so that all the FUD can be put to bed, that things won't turn out as bad as people thought.