Losing faith in DRK

[David]

I agree with everything said above, but it's the same song from the same hymn sheet. How do you fix it? We seem to be good at talking about the issues and fixes but not actually fixing it

My #1 issue is communication--both ways.

It's easy to forget that communication is a two-way street. Evan doesn't have time to read every post here, let alone on BCT, so we need people to take the information, filter it, and pass the relevant parts to him. Why don't we get eltito to select a couple of volunteers to keep up with the BCT thread, and another volunteer to keep up with community posts here. They could send daily or twice-weekly summaries to eltito, who could further distill them into actionable information to help Evan. That would make sure Evan gets the relevant information (important new ideas, problems that for some reason aren't or can't be documented in Jira, important non-code questions that need to be answered, media inquiries, etc.)

Secondly, once Evan or his designee comes up with a response to the community's issues and questions, they could post a summary (weekly? biweekly?).

Third, like a previous poster said, update us weekly or biweekly even if there is "nothing to report." We understand that you might not have solutions yet, but let us at least know what you are working on and have been working on. Got a particularly thorny problem that you haven't solved yet? No problem, tell us what you're working on and that you'll get us more info once you've figured it out. As a history professor (part time), I can tell you that people truly respect an "I don't know, but I'll find out" answer.

P.S. If I can make one more suggestion: make it a policy that all future RC updates have to run bug-free on testnet for 48-72 hours. I understand that not all problems can be predicted and fixed on test...there are some things that only come to light on mainnet. But why not make sure that all testnet issues are completely fixed and everything runs smoothly for a brief period, before introducing to mainnet?

 

[NewJack]

My #1 issue is communication--both ways.

Why don't we get eltito to select a couple of volunteers to keep up with the BCT thread, and another volunteer to keep up with community posts here.

I think the system would be stronger if, instead of volunteers, people were paid in DRK. This to me would strengthen the currency as a viable medium of exchange, rather than a pump and dump investment vehicle.

 

[David]

I think the system would be stronger if, instead of volunteers, people were paid in DRK. This to me would strengthen the currency as a viable medium of exchange, rather than a pump and dump investment vehicle.

That would be great, except for the problem of who would pay them? And donations are notoriously unreliable to fund actual paid positions...

 

[NewJack]

That would be great, except for the problem of who would pay them? And donations are notoriously unreliable to fund actual paid positions...

How about the numerous people that have darkcoins on this forum? Create positions, and fund them via people on the forum. If people don't believe in the project enough to fund development, then what kind of coin do you really have... a real means of transaction backed with faith and effort, or a pump and dump?

 

[stonehedge]

How about the numerous people that have darkcoins on this forum? Create positions, and fund them via people on the forum. If people don't believe in the project enough to fund development, then what kind of coin do you really have... a real means of transaction backed with faith and effort, or a pump and dump?

I really don't think there is a link between how much the dev team and testing community put into Darkcoin and immediate renumeration.

 

[David]

How about the numerous people that have darkcoins on this forum? Create positions, and fund them via people on the forum. If people don't believe in the project enough to fund development, then what kind of coin do you really have... a real means of transaction backed with faith and effort, or a pump and dump?

As I said before, donation-based schemes don't usually raise that much money. Tragedy of the commons.

 

[NewJack]

As I said before, donation-based schemes don't usually raise that much money. Tragedy of the commons.

I also don't think a "donation" model works very well in this case. That is why I think setting up paid positions, specifically paid in DRK, is the way to go.

Like any other Foundation, certain jobs and positions are set up and paid for. So if there are 4 million darkcoins in peoples wallets (and surely the Foundation members have some of these) then shouldn't they fund the Foundation and its operation? Or perhaps one of these "whales" interested in seeing their investment grow? Developers are already "funding" with their time, but this way they distribute the workload, quicken development, and further solidify the coin. The development stage now seems to need more people not necessarily involved with actual coding.

I am guessing that at this stage of development (unlike the previous stages) you have to spend DRK to make DRK.

 

[tungfa]

I also don't think a "donation" model works very well in this case. That is why I think setting up paid positions, specifically paid in DRK, is the way to go.

Like any other Foundation, certain jobs and positions are set up and paid for. So if there are 4 million darkcoins in peoples wallets (and surely the Foundation members have some of these) then shouldn't they fund the Foundation and its operation? Or perhaps one of these "whales" interested in seeing their investment grow? Developers are already "funding" with their time, but this way they distribute the workload, quicken development, and further solidify the coin. The development stage now seems to need more people not necessarily involved with actual coding.

I am guessing that at this stage of development (unlike the previous stages) you have to spend DRK to make DRK.

I agree that certain jobs might require payment,
but i am not sure if we are at that stage yet !
I think it is on the community to show some backbone and put in some work ! That is how it is supposed to work in the Crypto World !
Look at Doge coin, there is no money in the whole sceem and the community is doing more work than in any other coin/ they only exhist because of their community !
Let show them what we can do !

I started a new thread as suggested for ideas and a list of things we (the community) should try to get in place before the next RC !
Please check it out, I invited you all as well (so you can find it),
no pressure, but it would be great to see you there !
https://darkcointalk.org/threads/fo...things-to-have-in-place-for-the-next-rc.2238/

 

[falsealarm_bf]

I can't believe we are back to discussing the same topics/issues that were previously discussed and supposedly resolved months ago. Communication plans, roles and responsibilities, paid positions, etc. were all, though unofficially, discussed, decided on and contributed towards by the Core Team. Excuse my language but there is something "fucking" inherently wrong going on with the way things are progressing with this coin outside of software development. There is a decent development team fully engaged in moving the technology further however there is near zero progress elsewhere which increasingly wastes great opportunities in real life implementation. What happened to the core team of community volunteers? Though not with official titles, this group had great promise but seems to have been brushed aside at one point. I had months ago "shouted" the need for a Foundation to help guide all towers contributing to the development of this coin, publicly speak for its direction, respond to questions, etc., and was happy to hear one was established but even that seems to have been done haphazardly. To this day, there has not been an official announcement of it. There is no clear information on how the directors were chosen, what their past accomplishments were, what the mission of the foundation is, what are the short term plans, etc. I understand this is "Evan's" coin and he can choose to drive it to the ground if he chooses to but if the sake of many investors are taken slightly into consideration, it's time for someone or some group with proper business sense to take reign, develop and communicate a path, and build some excitement around this coin again.

P.s. No, I am not an angry investor who has lost money on DRK. I am simply disappointed in the missed opportunities.

 

[stonehedge]

I can't believe we are back to discussing the same topics/issues that were previously discussed and supposedly resolved months ago. Communication plans, roles and responsibilities, paid positions, etc. were all, though unofficially, discussed, decided on and contributed towards by the Core Team. Excuse my language but there is something "fucking" inherently wrong going on with the way things are progressing with this coin outside of software development. There is a decent development team fully engaged in moving the technology further however there is near zero progress elsewhere which increasingly wastes great opportunities in real life implementation. What happened to the core team of community volunteers? Though not with official titles, this group had great promise but seems to have been brushed aside at one point. I had months ago "shouted" the need for a Foundation to help guide all towers contributing to the development of this coin, publicly speak for its direction, respond to questions, etc., and was happy to hear one was established but even that seems to have been done haphazardly. To this day, there has not been an official announcement of it. There is no clear information on how the directors were chosen, what their past accomplishments were, what the mission of the foundation is, what are the short term plans, etc. I understand this is "Evan's" coin and he can choose to drive it to the ground if he chooses to but if the sake of many investors are taken slightly into consideration, it's time for someone or some group with proper business sense to take reign, develop and communicate a path, and build some excitement around this coin again.

P.s. No, I am not an angry investor who has lost money on DRK. I am simply disappointed in the missed opportunities.

Missed opportunities maybe but it is still early enough to put things right!

 

[JGCMiner]

So because the team is not moving exactly the way you want them to means you rant?

The foundation has been announced and it has been stated that details are coming in the future. The core team has a section on this forum and it takes one glance to see what they are working on. (That is OB integration and the website, btw).

There is no point in putting a lot of effort into real life uses if the tech is not finished and it is just now being finished. To a certain extent one can move in parallel and that IS what is happening.

Either do something constructive as a community member or petition to join the dev team. In other words, actually contribute rather than complaining like somebody owes you something. At the very least state specific examples of what is wrong AND how it should be better. You know, constructive criticism.

I want foundation details NOW and the core team is not working on the things I want them to... doesn't count.

 

[Ignition75]

So because the team is not moving exactly the way you want them to means you rant?

The foundation has been accounced and it has been stated that details are coming in the future. The core team has a section on this forum and it takes one glance to see what they are working on. (That is OB integration and the website, btw).

There is no point in putting a lot of effort into real life uses if the tech is not finished and it is just now being finished. To a certain extent one can move in parallel and that IS what is happening.

Either do something constructive as a community member or petition to join the dev team. In other words, actually contribute rather than complaining like somebody owes you something. At the very least state specific examples of what is wrong AND how it should be better. You know, constructive criticism.

I want foundation details NOW and the core team is not working on the things I want them to... doesn't count.

Exactly!

I wouldn't go live right now either, I wouldn't approach a single merchant or spend a cent on marketing just yet.

It would be a missed opportunity to seek adoption until we had a finished product, we only get 1 shot at this.

 

[Stealth923]

Exactly!

I wouldn't go live right now either, I wouldn't approach a single merchant or spend a cent on marketing just yet.

It would be a missed opportunity to seek adoption until we had a finished product, we only get 1 shot at this.

Hence my previous posts, thoroughly agree - we get one shot at a polished finished product to make the impression....dont drip feed things saying the wallet GUI, website etc will come down the track so we could open source earlier....do it once, do it right. Be the whole package.

Edit: I hope Evan will provide his thoughts on these discussions to understand his motives for open source launch.

 

[falsealarm_bf]

So because the team is not moving exactly the way you want them to means you rant?

The foundation has been announced and it has been stated that details are coming in the future. The core team has a section on this forum and it takes one glance to see what they are working on. (That is OB integration and the website, btw).

There is no point in putting a lot of effort into real life uses if the tech is not finished and it is just now being finished. To a certain extent one can move in parallel and that IS what is happening.

Either do something constructive as a community member or petition to join the dev team. In other words, actually contribute rather than complaining like somebody owes you something. At the very least state specific examples of what is wrong AND how it should be better. You know, constructive criticism.

I want foundation details NOW and the core team is not working on the things I want them to... doesn't count.

JGCMiner, where in my post did I say I was disappointed because what "I wanted" was not happening? I listed past past progress and complained about the lack of it due to some bad decision making. And where do you come up with this "unfinished" product argument? This is not a dining room table, and we are not a retail store who needs to display final product. Evan has been working in a de-facto "agile" development mode since the beginning anyway. Who also says we get "one shot at this"? If that is in fact the case, then we lost when DRK wallet was released because we are "live" and have been so for the last several months. These arguments are appropriate for someone fresh out of school or have not business or development background.

 

[eduffield]

Someone said I didn't reply to the exact points brought up. I hope this helps.

flare is a great addition to the team and he tries to fulfill his role as best as he can but what to do when the lead dev does not follow the advice of the guy in charge of QA? Also, something has to be said about Evan not listening to the testing community pleading to have a stable product for a couple of days on testnet before releasing to mainnet. flare even drafted a testnet rollback & go-live plan that was purely and simply ignored.

- Me and flare talk outside of Darkcointalk. The rc4 launch was not a hardfork and couldn't fail. Plus as the main developer, I have rollback plans already. Remember I rolled back RC2/RC3?

As we move into RC4, we will engage in a significantly more organized campaign to disseminate information than we have with any previous RC launch.
Even with a reduced scope (no enforcement) and a rushed, insufficiently tested release (no masternode voting consensus tests, no rollback/go-live tests)

- Reduced scope? RC4 was a complete rewrite of Darksend. Release candidates aren't suppose to have new code unless it's absolutely necessary and the new way Darksend works was just too good not to implement it in. It was such a large ticket item that it shifted the entire release and it became impossible to test the voting system in the given time. Enforcement in any form is the most risky thing we can do and we have 80%+ payments currently. This isn't a high priority and can be done later. Why delay the entire launch of Darksend by a month or more just to gain 15-20% masternode payments? People were itching to have RC4 on mainnet and I knew it worked, so we launched.

On top of that, flare, who is one of the few to have seen the code, considers the RC3 payment system not viable (https://darkcointalk.org/threads/rc4-issues-bugs-feature-requests.2039/page-13#post-18236):

- Flare isn't a programmer.

For the first time, users are actually losing DRK due to corrupt wallets that even Evan is unable to salvage while the root cause remains unknown. See http://jira.darkcoin.qa/browse/DRK-27?jql= where Evan states:

- Unknown? When upgrading an encrypted wallet from 100 to 1000 sized keypool, sometimes they became corrupted. This was only a problem between v28 and v31. Also it only affected one wallet. In v32 users are prompted to move funds to a new wallet if they're possibly at risk.

 

[tungfa]

tx evan for taking out the time to talk through these technical details !!

 

[eduffield]

A couple more answers:

The spork alternative has been interesting but let's not fool ourselves, most masternode owners have been waiting for the possibility to enforce masternode payments for a long time, like vertoe. Most of us have the feeling that leaving things to the pools' generosity is a doubtful strategy. See http://jira.darkcoin.qa/browse/DRK-19?jql= and https://darkcointalk.org/threads/rc4-issues-bugs-feature-requests.2039/page-13#post-18199. Additionally, when asked what would be done about pools that decide not to pay masternodes Evan answered (https://darkcointalk.org/threads/closed-rc4-testing.1830/page-78#post-15352):
They'll update or we'll kick them off the network.

I'm going to kick older protocol versions off of the network with RC5. We should be able to get 90%+ because of this. This is also another reason enforcement isn't needed right now, I'd like to try this first.

Useability issues: the wallet redesign that could have improved the user experience and was initiated by DRKLord has been on hold for several days or weeks. Initially, supporters were hoping to see this redesign coincide with the RC4 release; it is now unclear whether it would even be considered for RC5. It is not mentioned by Evan in his August 19 development update. See https://darkcointalk.org/threads/development-update-august-19-2014.2086/ and https://darkcointalk.org/threads/enhanced-darkcoin-wallet-ui.1705/

I haven't heard for DRKLord in awhile, however I heard he's really ill. I'll reach out to him and made sure he's OK.

 

[raze]

What's the status of InternetApe? Is he still part of the dev team?

 

[stonehedge]

Ed...maybe a weekly Q&A session might be in order? It doesn't even have to be you doing it. Maybe one of the mods could collate questions, send them to the dev team and post responses back here.

EDIT: It seems that every time you post here the price on mintpal goes up :wink:

 

[GreyGhost]

Ed...maybe a weekly Q&A session might be in order? It doesn't even have to be you doing it. Maybe one of the mods could collate questions, send them to the dev team and post responses back here.

This is, by far, the best idea regarding "promotional activities" for Darkcoin.

EDIT: It seems that every time you post here the price on mintpal goes up :wink:

This reinforces a need for open communication channels. Like in any other realm, with the high price comes respect.