Let's take a quick vote on proposal costs

[Acedian]

No. People of limited means have proven they are of limited use or they would not have limited means.

You are clearly from the western world. If someone from a country with an unstable currency is looking at dash as a way out of uncontrolled inflation for example, then they may wish to propose a change to facilitate many people from that country using dash more easily. Coming from a low wage country, $500 might be a years salary. Do you seriously suggest that millions of people shouldn't have their voices heard because you think only the rich have something to offer?

 

[akhavr]

You have your voice. Post here. Do work. Earn the reward. Invest. Vote as a masternode.

I doubt there's any other decent way. At least, I've not found one.

 

[slava_m]

People who actually bring something to the table, are people who have resources gained from the last time they did something useful in the world.
If you believe your idea isn't good enough for you to spend your own money on it, why should DASH spend it's money on it?

Unfortunately, we don’t live in the world of meritocracy. Generally, true enthusiasts barely have any money to embody their ideas. It’s unfair, it’s a pity, but it’s the way things go. Remember Steve Jobs’ story, when he asked Bill Hewlett for some spare parts to build a computer? That’s the case. There is a lot of money in this world. But the ideas are what we need to seek for.


On the other hand, most of wealthy people are trying to multiple their wealth. If someone would spend $1000 on a proposal he must be seeking for return on that money. It’s a common sense, but that incentivizes people to make only money, with no profit to community.

Weeds out the pothead couch-surfers.

MNO won't have time, resources, and desire to go through each one responsibly and will resort to bulk voting yes or no. And this is not the desired behavior in the budgeting system.

Yes, going through all the proposals would take some time. But this is what Decentralized Governance stands for - hence the responsibility is shared, but it's not reduced.

 

[slava_m]

By the way – if proposal expenditures are less that $1000 is it wise to burn additional $1000 just to post it?

 

[camosoul]

with no profit to community.

Socialism does not work.

 

[camosoul]

You are clearly from the western world. If someone from a country with an unstable currency is looking at dash as a way out of uncontrolled inflation for example, then they may wish to propose a change to facilitate many people from that country using dash more easily. Coming from a low wage country, $500 might be a years salary. Do you seriously suggest that millions of people shouldn't have their voices heard because you think only the rich have something to offer?

If you think you can develop a retail DASH -> fiat portal in a straw hut with no computer or internet access, by all means, get to it and I'll pay you enough to buy the shitty country you live in. You'll go from straw hut to castle on a hill. Just get all the work done that you claim to be able to do with no access to resources or any of the skills that would come from years of working with those resources.

Some skills are based upon resource availability. If you've never had the resources, how can you have the skills?

See how that reality thing works? If you want to pay millions to someone who clearly has no ability to do the job, spend your own fortune that you probably don't have because you think these dumb faux-philanthropy things will ever work out or help anyone... If you want to call yourself a philanthropist, you'll have to become a realist, first.

Throwing money at someone who dreamed up a cool idea, will not create within that person any of the skills or understanding needed to bring that idea into reality. They will fail and your money will be gone.

Being able to afford a $1000 budget proposal fee means you've got a strong idea, you've got confidence in your ability to bring it, and you don't fear anyone turning you down and losing that money because you've got a history of getting shit done so its no big deal to you. If this is untrue, you shouldn't be submitting a proposal.

 

[thesavoyard]

If you think you can develop a retail DASH -> fiat portal in a straw hut with no computer or internet access, by all means, get to it and I'll pay you enough to buy the shitty country you live in. You'll go from straw hut to castle on a hill. Just get all the work done that you claim to be able to do with no access to resources or any of the skills that would come from years of working with those resources.

Some skills are based upon resource availability. If you've never had the resources, how can you have the skills?

See how that reality thing works? If you want to pay millions to someone who clearly has no ability to do the job, spend your own fortune that you probably don't have because you think these dumb faux-philanthropy things will ever work out or help anyone... If you want to call yourself a philanthropist, you'll have to become a realist, first.

Throwing money at someone who dreamed up a cool idea, will not create within that person any of the skills or understanding needed to bring that idea into reality. They will fail and your money will be gone.

Being able to afford a $1000 budget proposal fee means you've got a strong idea, you've got confidence in your ability to bring it, and you don't fear anyone turning you down and losing that money because you've got a history of getting shit done so its no big deal to you. If this is untrue, you shouldn't be submitting a proposal.

I'm sorry but that is not a realistic view of the world outside the US. Most of the world has better or equal access to technology than the US. Take Moldova, average yearly salary is $1,700 yes they have gigabit fiber throughout the country. They have no problem accessing computers and can build specialized equipment for a fraction of the cost an American would pay. Romania is another example of a poor country with high technology. They also have better roads. These up and coming countries are hungry and have been investing like crazy.

 

[JZA]

I think it should either be linked to something more stable, like the dollar or gold, or else a % of the requested amount.

% of requested amount, actually, seems most flexible. And if successful, the fee can automatically be reimbursed with no need to add to the requested fee like now. I hate that we just burn dash up now anyway

The reimbursements could be above and beyond the set budget because the fee was burned in the first place, so we're not creating more just replacing the burned fee. I think that can be done without any security risks.

I think this will be a bit abused for hedging.

 

[JZA]

I'm sorry but that is not a realistic view of the world outside the US. Most of the world has better or equal access to technology than the US. Take Moldova, average yearly salary is $1,700 yes they have gigabit fiber throughout the country. They have no problem accessing computers and can build specialized equipment for a fraction of the cost an American would pay. Romania is another example of a poor country with high technology. They also have better roads. These up and coming countries are hungry and have been investing like crazy.

Same for Ghana and Venezuela, technology is not the problem. Even Haiti a country devastated by Hurricane, has a lot of mobile phones and people connecting on whatsapp. However the issue comes when we want to get them organized, primarily because of the high level of corruption everywhere. Thats where order falls flat and whatever organization you tried to shoestring along, comes to a halt.

 

[demo]

<vote history><-- why vote history is usefull?
How much Dash should a proposal cost at current prices?
5 Dash 5 vote(s) 20.0%
4 Dash 0 vote(s) 0.0%
3 Dash 0 vote(s) 0.0%
2 Dash 3 vote(s) 12.0%
1 Dash 11 vote(s) 44.0%
*Less than 1 Dash 6 vote(s) 24.0%
</vote history>

Ok...And now, how do you extract a result from this poll?

Can this wicked and fool community extract a result from this poll, or this poll has no purpose and no result can be extracted from it? If you cannot (or if you dont want) to extract a result from this poll, then why did you created this poll in the very first place? And why did you voted on it?

You are tottaly fools. You vote the numbers but when they ask you if you desire to vote the numbers, your answer is a clear NO. You create polls, but when they ask you how to extract results from the polls, you refuse to extract a result.

And thats why the vote history is usefull. Because the amount of conflicting polls is a clear sign of the amount of madness a community has, for the newcomers and the future generations to know.

 

[slava_m]

If you think you can develop a retail DASH -> fiat portal in a straw hut with no computer or internet access, by all means, get to it and I'll pay you enough to buy the shitty country you live in. You'll go from straw hut to castle on a hill. Just get all the work done that you claim to be able to do with no access to resources or any of the skills that would come from years of working with those resources.

Some skills are based upon resource availability. If you've never had the resources, how can you have the skills?

See how that reality thing works? If you want to pay millions to someone who clearly has no ability to do the job, spend your own fortune that you probably don't have because you think these dumb faux-philanthropy things will ever work out or help anyone... If you want to call yourself a philanthropist, you'll have to become a realist, first.

Throwing money at someone who dreamed up a cool idea, will not create within that person any of the skills or understanding needed to bring that idea into reality. They will fail and your money will be gone.

Being able to afford a $1000 budget proposal fee means you've got a strong idea, you've got confidence in your ability to bring it, and you don't fear anyone turning you down and losing that money because you've got a history of getting shit done so its no big deal to you. If this is untrue, you shouldn't be submitting a proposal.

The only person talking about socialism here is you. Why would one spend his own money to develop some community or society? What would be his incentives?

 

[demo]

Being able to afford a $1000 budget proposal fee means you've got a strong idea, you've got confidence in your ability to bring it, and you don't fear anyone turning you down and losing that money because you've got a history of getting shit done so its no big deal to you. If this is untrue, you shouldn't be submitting a proposal.

Your mind is a total mess. Please try to understand what is the legislative power and how that differs from the executive power. Is it so hard for you to understand it? There is no need the one who proposes something, to necessarily be capable to implement it also. You should better let everyone propose anything, and then let anyone who is capable to implement something that has been voted, to implement it and get paid for that. Some people have good ideas but they are unable to implement them, and some other people have no ideas at all, but they are good in the implementation.

The separation between the legislative and the executive power can be accomplished if the community decides to have this alternative budget proposal system.

 

[Leonidas]

tl;rd: imagine DASH going to $1000 and proposal submission fee stays $50. System would be swamped by requests for "free money" (one may argue it does already). MNO won't have time, resources, and desire to go through each one responsibly and will resort to bulk voting yes or no. And this is not the desired behavior in the budgeting system.

Well, mayybe that should actually be the job of the Masternodes. Let's say I have a masternode setup through the service of moocowmoo. I'm paying 35 $ for 3 months for moocowmoo to do all the job of setting up, upgrading and so on and I get 800 dollars in return. What is the value I bring to the network ? Maybe the job of Masternode would be what they were created for : gouvern. And yes, gouvern takes time, but you get paid for, don't you ?

When I see that not 100 % of the budget is allocated, it is sure that there is not enough proposals. Plus what's appear to you an excellent proposal can sometimes not be perceived as one by the network. Based on that premise, I would definitely think twice before putting up a proposal.

That being said, I believe you are actually totally say :

Join forces instead, communicate and form groups. Instead of submitting 2 proposals on "promoting DASH in Ukraine", do a single one which would be more comprehensive. Instead of submitting 10 funding proposals for ATMs, create ATM Task Force, propose funding conditions for ATM owners and clear investment thesis for MNO. Instead of.. Well, you get the idea...

However, this doesn't mean we shouldn't decrease the entrance fee (which people seems to want based on the poll result so far). Plus, everything is about try and error. If actually as everybody claims there would be a lot of spam, the treshold could be brought right back up, that's the beauty of the system, ain't ?

 

[akhavr]

What is the value I bring to the network?

I'd urge you to read the source code. It describes to the very bit the value masternodes bring to the network.

 

[Leonidas]

I'd urge you to read the source code. It describes to the very bit the value masternodes bring to the network.

I'm sorry, I must have not expressed myself quitely right.

I know what value the Masternodes bring to the network and it's great.

But it's not what I'm talking about.

What I am talking about is that what do I, as an individual, bring to the network ? As I was saying, if I had to do the setting up, the upgrades I would certainly think that I spend some time for the network to increase its value. But in the case that I would subcontract it to moocowmoo's service, basically my workload as an individual is to pay for the service every 3 months, that's it (probably around 3 min of my time). Then the machine or other people do the work for me.

So, basically I am not doing anything and I earn 800 dollars a month. It would be very fine to stay like that if we hadn't a whole community to build and to expand. That's why I argue that proposals price should definitely be lowered so we can benefit from all those ideas from people that don't have enough money to take a risk of spending 500 $ on a proposal. Sure that will mean more proposals, but we have a budget that is barely spent and Masternodes that have to take up to the responsability of being at the head of governing Dash ! Can't be without efforts !

Finally, I've got a question : budget proposal is about budget. What about proposal that are proposition for changing how things around here and doesn't have nothing to do with the budget, such as this one of lowering the proposals fees ? Is it also through the budget proposal system or through another way ?

 

[akhavr]

Masternodes that have to take up to the responsability of being at the head of governing Dash

You have no technical means to force other people to do what you want.

 

[Leonidas]

You have no technical means to force other people to do what you want.

It's not about forcing. Its about what the network decides it wants, and how it plans to incentivize people to what it want.
About the technical means, I am not that worried given what dash core team have been accomplishing so far.

 

[akhavr]

It's not about forcing. Its about what the network decides it wants, and how it plans to incentivize people to what it want.
About the technical means, I am not that worried given what dash core team have been accomplishing so far.

"Network" isn't a sentient being. It can't "decide".

One may give miners a better (more profitable) chain to mine, which, may require a smaller proposal fee.

Or one may ask MNO to vote on a hard fork, lowering proposal fee. In that case I'd expect a well-written explanation how it would benefit MNO's. So far I've seen none.

I see both options unlikely now. That may change in the future.

 

[demo]

Or one may ask MNO to vote on a hard fork, lowering proposal fee. In that case I'd expect a well-written explanation how it would benefit MNO's. So far I've seen none.

Or maybe a hard fork will occur, if someone explains the reason why the MNOs do not deserve to have the important role they currently have into the Dash community. Someone may explain how the Dash community will benefit if they overthrown the MNOs, if they diminish the MNO's voting rights and power.

Beware of the hard fork, because maybe it is not for the benefit of the MNO's. Maybe the hard fork it is for the justice to be established among the individual members of the Dash community.

In the meanwhile, and if you want a scientific proof on how usefull the MNO's really are, please express your opinion whether you believe that the votes of all the actors should be recorded or not.

 

[ec1warc1]

If the cost of a proposal was $50USD 6 months ago, it should be $50USD today. The dollar still buys about the same amount so it is a good measure of stability for the short term. If you don't like the dollar, you could base it on a certain weight of silver or gold. Euros? fine with me.