Fabio — 07/24/2021
After reading the comments, I'm not sure I really want to watch the quarterly call. I am already pissed. Until when has platform be delayed this time? Having had 2 proposals myself and having followed the D-A-CH embassy very closely from the ground, I am very annoyed at the double standard we display towards DCG compared to other proposals. I really think it's time DCG gets some of the heat every normal PO gets.
This level of borderline dishonesty is enfuriating. I don't like listening to marketing lies and I am asking myself how long I have already been doing so. Does DCG believe themselves what they say and are just always honestly wrong or is this darker?
How does one fire Ryan? A proposal?
Fabio — 07/24/2021
For the records (and football fans): I respect Ryan. He is like Jogi Löw, Germanys ex football manager. He won the worldcup (=professionalised DASH in the early days) but he stayed far too long and did not make sure to have a good successor but kept making himself "indispensable" (= bad leadership in my book). (I've been in Dash since 2014, to whom it may concern)
Quantumexplorer — 07/24/2021
@Fabio I think DCG is getting heat. I'm the new (interim, maybe permanent CTO). My first objective as CTO is to make it abundantly clear where we are in our roadmap.
And to greatly increase transparency on the development side of things. We just had a successful release of platform v20, which to date was the most complicated release since v14 of core I would say.
Of course that's not to mainnet, but we're getting there. I'm going on Joel's talk show on Friday and going to do my best to paint a good picture of where we are.
The main thing is as I'm taking on CTO, I don't want to promise our roadmap anymore, instead I want to show the exact tasks that we are working on. Then when each task is complete to explain to our community, even if it's technical, why we are doing this.
There will still be a roadmap, don't get me wrong, it's just that after delay and delay I feel like we need more understanding about the difficulty of the tasks involved and the fact that we ARE solving them. A lot of the stuff we do HAS NEVER been done before so we don't really have a reference to go by time wise.
I also don't think it's dishonesty on the part of Ryan and Bob before me. I think Ryan and Bob before me genuinely believed that we will launch in the time frames they provide after talking with dev teams that were not so great at giving estimates.
As we get closer to the goal however... well... it's a little harder and harder to be way off.
I bet though that a lot of people don't actually know where we are compared to the goal.
So me saying we are much closer might be meaningless.
That's why I really want to lay everything bare for everyone to see and to come to their own conclusions. There's also a few tasks that would have great benefit to be in our MVP, and I want to poll our community at some point later this year to ask if we should delay a little to include each.
Things like a proper name distribution.
We have a new product owner joining on Monday, he's a technical product owner and I think someone who will be greatly helpful to me in the task of creating a list of all tasks left to MVP (and a few extra).
It might take up to a month to have this list (unless the guy isn't good, which I doubt since he seemed great in interviews), I'm not sure how quickly it can be done by him while he's just starting. But I do promise it will get done as soon as possible.
Doeke — 07/24/2021
Thanks QE. Your feedback is refreshing and much appreciated. I think this is exactly the kind of transparency the community longed for.
andyfreer — 07/24/2021
What's your position on restoring effective DAPI access for community developers. Is that before, during or after MVP (or no plans).
Quantumexplorer — 07/24/2021
I personally only know of one bug that is currently being worked on, which means that they are currently already assigned to team members to fix. I think we are at a point, now at v20, where our focus is shifting from mostly writing new features to spending half our time on new features and half our time fixing or replacing code that we initially wrote as a proof of concept. I think the latter will greatly increase the stability of the system in the coming months. On top of that we will try to hire an extra developer based on the feedback given who's main responsibility will be the Javascript SDK.
andyfreer — 07/24/2021
Ok... can we clarify. What i'm asking is, is it a requirement of Platform releases to support community dev access (as it was on EvoNet) in the sense that it will be a working product they can use again, and what is the roadmap for that, either in time or in phase (as I mention aboved) now you just gained control of that decision / responsibility
whats the official DCG position
Quantumexplorer — 07/24/2021
Yes, but we only will commit to supporting already existing features on JS SDK on the day of platform releases (no regressions). Platform releases should never block development that happened on any previous version from now on. However some features of a newly released version might not be immediately available. V20 is a prime example of this. In v20 we have a proof system where data can be completely verified with threshold sigs. I will be covering what an achievement this is in the following week. However we released with only our Java SDK having verified this to be working, and without it even being officially released in that SDK. Android should come this upcoming week, iOS maybe this week or the following. JS will be before the v21 release. Until then system can work the same as in V19 if you disregard proofs.
andyfreer — 07/24/2021
" I will be covering what an achievement this is in the following week" ok just on this comment, I wouldn't be boasting about anything within Platform right now, when it's effectively been allowed to become a broken product for its target market for the last 6 months, effectively pulling the rug from large community of developers the Network has been supporting and funding highly.
unless of course that basic function has been restored
Quantumexplorer — 07/24/2021
I was not in charge during that period. And when you started incubator I did say to you that platform was not ready.
andyfreer — 07/24/2021
Don't remember that. Obvs DCG released evonet with public access for developers. never was it stated that DCG strategy was that developers shouldn't use it
andyfreer — 07/24/2021
so by this comment are you saying now that Platform is too early for developers?
andyfreer — 07/24/2021
yes I thought i made it clear im not holding you responsible for the regression of the API function. Im asking now because you're the person with control of this as of yesterday
Quantumexplorer — 07/24/2021
No, I'm saying that it was too early for developers, as was made apparent by things failing on people. I can't promise that v20 will be 100% stable either, but I do think that it's going to be a lot better than before.
andyfreer — 07/24/2021
Ok I mean it was working and the network and the devs were happy. So not sure why you're saying this... or that it's relevant now anyway
Just looking for like real simple straight answer - is DCG gonna prioritize community dev access to Platform (meaning restore its basic functions and maintain those across releases)
obvs if you release a new version and its got breaking changes thats fine (meaning code changes will make the dev code work). But right now its just broken (meaning no changes will make dev code work)
Quantumexplorer — 07/24/2021
Here's the official answer : the JS, iOS and Android SDKs for platform are now all on the same level of priority. Extra work will be going into the JS SDK to raise it to the same level as the two others.
Eventually I would also like to expand this to add a python SDK as well. <- not official, just something I want to do, as I think it would be beneficial.
andyfreer — 07/24/2021
"JS, iOS and Android SDKs for platform are now all on the same level of priority" excellent. and so because iOS and Android are required for DashPay, having JS at the same priority means its gonna work again, right?
Quantumexplorer — 07/24/2021
We are all reliant on individuals correct? I can only promise that more ressources will go into making things work better and be more stable. I can't completely promise that this will resolve all issues, but I do think that by adding more ressources to fixing the problems the problems will go away.
xkcd — 07/24/2021
@Fabio Honestly, you should watch the Q call, there is a lot more going that just evo and also I want to remind you that we are currently activating about a dozen new opcodes similar to what BCH has to make L1 far more useful, eg SLP, so evo is just one part of what DCG delivers to us and it isn't even the part that brings home the bacon, it's a skunk works, the real shit is running perfectly smoothly and getting a level up as Pasta and QE bring on more talented devs.
andyfreer — 07/24/2021
I think we need the same standard / provision for DAPI access as we do for anything else we release, needs to work to minimum level. Today its not, so i'd assume normal thing to do would be in your position work out how to get that on track. But once it is, don't see how that would be any different to any other protocol product
Quantumexplorer — 07/24/2021
In laymans terms Andy there will be 2 devs on JS client code (1.5 then 2 as soon as we can hire an extra), 0.5 devs on iOS, and 1 dev in Java till the end of the year.
Just for the client side libraries.
andyfreer — 07/24/2021
if you're saying that right now you don't know situation / don't know how long to get this working ofc I appreciate that 100%. What im saying is seems like official DCG support for this product has been lacking (actually practically withdrawn) and looking for assurances that that's now recognized and the API will fixed and working (and estimate how long or at which stage that might happen).
Quantumexplorer — 07/24/2021
Well we just released v20. I want to make sure v20 is working 100% well for incubator, I know there are some incubator devs still on v18 just because they can not get anything else to work.
To that extent we need incubator devs to tell us what is actually wrong with V20 once we are ready for them to upgrade. Right now we are fixing a bug in walletLib that we discovered the same day of release, when that is done we will make an official announcement inside Incubator that v20 is ready to be used by incubator devs. If incubator devs have issues at all in the week following that announcement fixing those issues will be our priority. However... after that, if someone runs into an issue, we will add that issue to our backlog of tasks to do and only tackle it once we are done with our current epics. Switching focus too often has a very big cost and I want to minimize that cost to have a faster time to market.
I have a lot of processes to codify over the next coming weeks, on top of dip writing, CTO responsibilities, development work and training of new devs. My point basically is if I'm not doing something perfectly it's just because I have a lot on my plate during this transition period. We will be increasing our jobs postings as well
andyfreer — 07/24/2021
It's good you're hear talking. It's providing much needed transparency and accountability
andyfreer — 07/24/2021
As far as I know, a dApp today can only be ran on a local 0.18 devnet, and it's quite hard to setup, Incubator's had many devs onboard who can't do that
Quantumexplorer — 07/24/2021
I don't want to dwell too much on the past, we both know what was wrong.
andyfreer — 07/24/2021
What your saying is positive and good to hear. But the reason I came in is was kinda looking for an official strategy position. I mean, e.g. in Incubator, they have to say what they're gonna do (in Rules / Proposals) and then be measured on it, because the idea is they're working for and accountable to the network. In this case i'm looking for an official general position on quality of API (is it officially supposed to work, and when, now, MVP) - because it's not shown in the last roadmap or been talked about.
The reason is because if there's not even an official position, how can DCG be measured on if it is / isn't delivering something. And in this case, future of Incubator (and the wider Platform dev ecosystem) is kinda dependant on
but I don't want to drag you over coals. What you said above is positive
Quantumexplorer — 07/24/2021
I agree, however all I can promise at this point is that more ressources will go into JS client than any other client. I can't promise how well people will do their work in the future, especially people who we haven't even hired yet.
andyfreer — 07/24/2021
ok, thanks for the feedback.
xkcd — 07/24/2021
Quantumexplorer — 07/24/2021
He told me in person he needs a complete break for a few months, and the temptation of checking discord is too much. He'll be back.
