Lamassu update ?

Icebucket

Icebucket

Active member
Im curious about the Lamassu ATM project, The price was 20.000$ for the integration (think I read that somewhere). How much has been payd thus far ? Does anyone know ?

Becourse there are 6 months remaining on the proposal. According to Dash Central.


Is there some "Already funded" function built in the budget system that tracks the price and recalculates the distributed cost of a multi month proposal ??

Are there any new updates on the process of this project
 
Icebucket said:
Im curious about the Lamassu ATM project, The price was 20.000$ for the integration (think I read that somewhere). How much has been payd thus far ? Does anyone know ?

Becourse there are 6 months remaining on the proposal. According to Dash Central.
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I think it should only be 3-4 cycles left? https://www.dashninja.pl/budgetdetails.html?budgetid=lamassu-integration

Icebucket said:
Is there some "Already funded" function built in the budget system that tracks the price and recalculates the distributed cost of a multi month proposal ??
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It is up to the masternode owner network to vote on proposals and down vote if they are against it.

I have seen a lot of work going on arround the lamassu project but sadly there isn't much to show for it.
 
Miner237 said:
It is up to the masternode owner network to vote on proposals and down vote if they are against it.
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Yes I would want to vote to continue paying if they have not been funded the whole amount they asked for.

But if they have already been funded then I dont get why the extra 8,281.69 USD for the remaining 3-4 months = 24,843 - 33.124 USD

Thats why I asked how much they have been payd last 8 months. Or maybe was the deal in X amount of Dash rather than USD ??

@kot any updates regarding Lamassu ?
 
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Did put in the time to make a excel. This is what came out of it 31.079 $ payed so far.
lamassu.jpg
 
In the current implementation price risk is borne by the contractor; they just got lucky.

Pablo.
 
Yes I agree with Pablo, they got very lucky because the amount of work is greater than they expected and the budget is worth more than expected.

Is there any one other than crypto guild and tigo ctm member that have lamassu running dash?

I would like to find out how to join the public beta
 
In all fairness, from what info has been made public, this is our worst performing open project by far. That doesn't mean anything regarding the conversion price but its something to think about for future budget implementations.

Pablo.
 
Pablo's answer is a simple short summary but for the benefit of newcomers I would like to add some context. To fully understand the nature of this contract you have to transport yourself back to the early days of our funding system. On those early days the budget was very limited in monthly dollar amount available to invest and also liquidity of Dash in exchanges was very low. We made a commitment as a team that we would not sell any Dash on exchanges to fund projects as with the low liquidity it was a big concern at the time how the investments would affect the Dash price on the short term. Evan and me were looking for investment opportunities for the network to advance adoption and start working in this direction and we really feel Dash terminals/ATMs will play an important role in the future of the network and wanted to get started in that direction.
The first thing you need to know is that we started attempts to create a Lamassu integration in-house far before there was any contractor involved or even a funding system.

We tried unsuccessfully for months after I had contacted Lamassu back in 2014 and they had shown interest and said yes that they would support us working on an integration. We tried with internal developers for months before there was any contractor involved or even a funding system. At the time @flare helped with technical questions in the interactions with the Lamassu team @UdjinM6 worked on our first ever attempt to create an integration but his time and expertise was just more valuable with CPP work and we then assigned it to another team developer from those days Francis. This was one of the first projects that Robert @kot took over as PM before any funding systems or contractors were on sight. We were just unable to do it at the time because it required specialized knowledge of CTMs and was much more complex than what we originally estimated and we just could not do it based on volunteer contributions. At the time a few of us on the team, specially Evan and me, were supporting development with donations of masternode rewards and the funding system did not even exist yet. Some of the developers still on the team and earlier community members would remember the masternode donation program where we were trying to compensate our developers donating the equivalent of 10 masternode monthly rewards as a development slot for each developer on the program. This donation program was not successful as it was hard to get sponsors to help, some generous people did step up, people like Oblox and Tungfa graciously offer to help with a few nodes, but in the end it was mostly Evan and me that ended up sponsoring this program before we had a funding system.

In fact the fact that we could not possibly scale our progress and the frustrations under the donation model lead to the development of the Governance system after our attempts to secure sponsors for donations were unsuccessful mainly because some of our investors that we approached did not like the free rider issue of funding development while other masternode operators would not be contributing and that is how the idea for a treasury came up after long discussions of how we could possibly solve this issue.

After we finally had a funding system and after being unable to produce an ATM integration for months on our own we started looking for contractors to finally produce Dash compatible ATM software that at the time was a big goal for us. We decided to hire the GitGuild (Deginner at the time) because they had a lot of experience with ATMs and had built plugins for them and had the experience to build it. Being something that we had being trying to do for months internally this was one of the first things we set out to do when we finally had a system. But again the size of our budget was small and the liquidity on exchanges was low so the best option for us at that time was to negotiate for the contractor to take a Dash contract, which was actually hard at the time it was not a given and also for the contractor to take terms/ monthly payments so it would not occupy a portion of our budget that was too large and would prevent us to do other investments at the same time. So that is the reason why we did a Dash based contract and not a USD based contract as we do now and is also the reason why we asked for terms and created a 12 month contract. We understand that as time passes the context of the situation at the time is forgotten and is easy to just multiply the current pricing back on one of our first contracts but that is just not the right way to see it and not how things went down back then. The contractor was also taking a risk with us the Dash economy was not back then what it is now. I can assure you we have made every decision at each phase looking to push the Dash network forward and with the best of intentions, our options were just extremely more limited at the time. I hope that this helps everyone that has join us along the way better understand the context. If you want more feedback from those days and how we came to those decisions you can ask any of the people that were involved at the time, to follow progress you can look at our update reports.
 
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@Minotaur Points well made my friend. Do not interpret my comments as a criticism, I have followed your releases with interest and am a big supporter.

Pablo.
 
fible1 said:
@Minotaur Points well made my friend. Do not interpret my comments as a criticism, I have followed your releases with interest and am a big supporter.

Pablo.
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@fible1 I am a fan of yours I think you always make intelligent comments and suggestions and look forward to working more with you in the future. I actually thought your reply was on point. I just wanted to share the whole picture as we understand we have grown a lot since then and a lot of information has been lost over time.
 
Wow thanks for your very detailed answer @Minotaur. So the deal was for X amount of Dash rather than USD .. that really just answers my concerns. Understandably no one could see this price increase coming ;) and the deal was made..
Im ok with that .. but what concerns me is the lack of communication from the lammasu team.

Do they get funded into there wallet or is there someone holding it in escrow until they show some milestones completed ?. Note that the project is already funded 150%


Ok lets forget that the deal was made in dash.. it does not matter but If the price stays the same from here it will be 55.889 $ that is almost 3 times what was asked...Still ok with that.

So far Im told only one ATM has Dash integrated out of all the ATMs they have. (there might be some legit reason for that (hopefully))

But that does not explain why this happens when you google
site:https://lamassu.is dash
guess what ... nothing shows up :eek:

I just think it is kind of sketchy that they dont even mention Dash on theyr website after 6 months of funding
 
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All of your information makes sense @Minotaur
What I am wondering about is how to make all Lamassu integrating it into all machines? And I have sent you PM long time ago, without any answer on your side. I would like to establish new partnership, that could make this proposal way more sucessfull.

I am looking forward to cooperate with you.

Yeah, and please clarify, why Lamassu is not in direct relation to this project as it was stated initialy.
 
Icebucket said:
Wow thanks for your very detailed answer @Minotaur. So the deal was for X amount of Dash rather than USD .. that really just answers my concerns. Understandably no one could see this price increase coming ;) and the deal was made..
Im ok with that .. but what concerns me is the lack of communication from the lammasu team.

Do they get funded into there wallet or is there someone holding it in escrow until they show some milestones completed ?. Note that the project is already funded 150%


Ok lets forget that the deal was made in dash.. it does not matter but If the price stays the same from here it will be 55.889 $ that is almost 3 times what was asked...Still ok with that.

So far Im told only one ATM has Dash integrated out of all the ATMs they have. (there might be some legit reason for that (hopefully))

But that does not explain why this happens when you google
site:https://lamassu.is dash
guess what ... nothing shows up :eek:

I just think it is kind of sketchy that they dont even mention Dash on theyr website after 6 months of funding
Click to expand...

Hi @Icebucket, thanks for the reply, I am going to try to address the rest of your concerns to the best of my knowledge. First I recommend to please read the discussion on our latest announcement and update here as there is information there that you may find relevant.

There is a very simple answer to your concern as we have never made any payments to Lamassu directly nor have they made a commitment to openly promote Dash on their website and is certainly not a deliverable we can guarantee as it depends on an independent business making this decision. Please allow to me to expand. What we set out to do was to produce software that would allow to run dual DASH and BTC teller machines on Lamassu hardware. We decided we wanted to work with Lamassu because they are true to the spirit of open source collaboration, machines that run closed sourced software were not an option for us for legal and philosophical reasons.

Back in 2014 I approached Lamassu directly with no contractor or funding system in sight to try to convince them to add Dash support to their machines. We were Darkcoin back then and while many businesses were scared of our brand I must say the Lamassu team are true libertarians that were open to the idea. Also ETH did not even exist yet. The agreement back then was that we would do the development work on our own and they would answer questions we may have and would examine once we had something alpha they could test. I already described in a previous post how things went and the fact that we were unable to produce a working version of this while trying with different in-house developers. This was a different time and you can see all the details on the previous post. After us being unable to produce a working version of this things went cold for a while but we always had the intention to go back to this once we found a way to do it.

After many things happen and we finally came up with the idea for the governance system and that was set in place we went back to revisit this topic and we found Deginner had experience with machines having built plugins for it in the past and they had a long standing relationship with the Lamassu team and were friendly since early years of Bitcoin. So the project was set in motion again, Ira helped us approach Lamassu again and they once again accepted to support us by providing guidance on the implementation process and sharing information on their plans to make any changes to their system so we could produce a working implementation this time. They are a start-up and never committed to do this work internally themselves or received any payment from us directly. We were also very clear that we were hiring Deginner to develop a Dual Dash / BTC software stack for Lamassu machines. This was an official statement from Zach Harvey as part of many articles that were released on the topic at the time:

This also sets a standard that other altcoins may follow. Zach Hervey, CEO and Co-Founder of Lamassu, Inc. told Bitcoin.com how this deal came to be, saying:

“Ira [Miller] from Deginner approached us regarding using our open source software for developing a Dash Lamassu version and we’re happy he’s doing it. Especially, since he has some experience fiddling with the Lamassu machine in Panama. In general, we’re open to merging well-supported pull requests that meet our standards and have proper demand.” You can read the whole article here: DASH Goes Up 20% After Lamassu Integration Approved

Of course we could never create this software without Lamassu's support and collaboration they have provided support to our contractor and shared details of changes, specially when they also started making changes to support multicurrency with an initial focus on ETH. Our contractor has so far created 3 versions of Dual DASH/BTC Lamassu software. A first fully working version was created before Lamassu had any ETH implementation or any multicurrency support. Then during the peak of Ethereum hype right before the DAO hack they made a business decision to try to introduce Ethereum although the software was just alpha and remains alpha they did put it on the website, this has nothing to do with us, but it affected us because they made changes to the database structure and made some choices on how multicurrency would work that differ from our first working implementation. So our contractor had to go back and create a second working implementation that is the one that today matches the multi-currency support that Lamassu is moving through their development cycle at their own pace. After this, we wanted to do more and as part of the FIAT gateways project we were now working on better tools to connect the Dash machines to broker software and create a more automated experience for the future Dash operators. So a third extended version was created which is the one in which we have more freedom to innovate and add more features.

Finally what we set out to do which was to produce dual DASH/BTC teller machine software and make it available to people has been accomplished. You can order machines now. If you want this machines to come directly from the Lamassu factory we can make arrangements with them to flash the machines with our software stack on the factory floor so you can get them ready to go. We also partnered with TigoCTM who are making all Lamassu machines they sell Dash enabled by default, both options exists. And I already know of at least 5 machines that people are in the process of setting up that will have Dash as an option. I myself bought one so I know is easy to do.

Now you mention that there was only one machine running as a concern, well obviously the first ever machine running is the one that Ira runs himself in the process of building the software, the prototype. Also Lamassu is a manufacturer they are not operators of a network at this time as far as I know. There will be more and more Dash machines operating in the wild as time goes by just because there is now an easy way to do it where before there was none. Business development is a continuous process where there is a few machines now in time there will be a hundred or a thousand if we create the right conditions for it, but clearly the first step of developing a network is making machines accessible which has always been the goal of the project. Now we are starting outreach and promotion of our implementation to encourage people to run machines and offer Dash alongside BTC.

If you want a machine to run in your town you can order it tomorrow and have it in a few weeks just like any other person ordering a CTM, that was our goal. About Dash being promoted on the Lamassu website that is a goal that we do not control because they are a private business but represents no obstacle to our plans of developing a network. I think in time they will promote us there as more people order Dash supporting machines but those are just my feelings. Our relationship to this day remains really friendly and we will follow their development process as they move multi-currency from alpha to production over the next few months as we have reported many times before.

I hope this helps clarify things for you and let me know if you have any more questions.
 
Comodore said:
All of your information makes sense @Minotaur
What I am wondering about is how to make all Lamassu integrating it into all machines? And I have sent you PM long time ago, without any answer on your side. I would like to establish new partnership, that could make this proposal way more sucessfull.

I am looking forward to cooperate with you.

Yeah, and please clarify, why Lamassu is not in direct relation to this project as it was stated initialy.
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Hi @Comodore I would love to collaborate with you, could you send me an email to [email protected] I am not really good with forum PMs, please identify yourself as Comodore on the email and we can start working.

I went into a lot more detail on the post right after yours, so I am hoping that some that information will be useful to you. About Lamassu integrating into all machines, well they are manufacturers and their machines run open source software. In reality is operators that we need to convince. In the case of new or existing operators that are already interested in Dash that should not be difficult is a matter of coordinating and giving them support. In the case of existing bitcoin operators with no current interest in Dash is a matter of networking and simply old school sales efforts. Which is what we are starting now, we are also working on some ideas that may make it attractive to operators to join Dash.

To your last question I think we have always been as clear as possible as to who we were hiring and what was the scope. In fact this is the orginal text of the proposal:
"Dash-Lamassu ATM Integration - 610.26 DASH - 12 months


E1q3RWrMNS26VIYiWPHY3ywFKm1I1iHTR_NW2PIzoaaRt1pXWyHJ-Ux0XMNZwXvP3hSeiuqPquW775C4Zq8vD5HbS6RRLpCvVPfFX5HeZyZY_H-zPZNpV-XylTpnwyPFegfDNont


We are very happy to announce our project to integrate Dash into the Lamassu ATM machines. One of our top priorities from a business development perspective is to improve direct access to our network for end users. We believe crypto ATMs are a great way for regular people to get access to DASH without being adept to crypto-currency online trading and Lamassu has currently the largest number of machines operating around the world of all the manufacturers.

Crypto ATMs will help bring DASH into the everyday life of regular users and increase utility by providing a physical bridge into the network. Dash is partnering with Deginner, a development firm with experience with the Lamassu machiness and the awareness of Lamassu to perform the integration. Support over a longer time frame is required to ensure the integration will be maintained for any changes in Dash or the Lamassu system, for this, Deginner will include a two year support for the integration. Ira Miller, from Deginner, has been instrumental in opening this opportunity for Dash by leading the conversation with the Lamassu team and making sure they are aware of the project.

This is a big project, as one key requirement of the integration is for Dash to be able to be presented to the user side-by-side with Bitcoin, meaning a current BTM operator can continue to offer BTC as he normally does and just expand to also offer DASH as an alternative by selecting an option in the menu if he desires. This means the whole system, including the UI, need to change as it was originally designed to do only BTC. This is critical to make it attractive for existing operators to offer Dash without any disruption to their BTC business or machines, just a menu option where they can activate DASH support at will. Also, for new DASH ATM operators which primary interest is DASH it makes sense to also offer BTC, creating synergies between both networks. The alternative of converting the machines from BTC exclusive to DASH exclusive was not really viable as there would not be a business case for current BTM operators to exclude BTC in favor of DASH at this point in time.

Ira Miller, Deginner founder and CEO, is a developer and entrepreneur working in Bitcoin since 2011, he was part of Bitinstant and founded Coinapult in 2012 with Erik Voorhees, which he sold in 2015. We hope that Ira’s collaboration and support for Dash continues in years to come.

Deginner was founded in early 2015 by former Coinapult CEO and CTO, isysd and g-p-g. The Deginner team has built many cryptocurrency services and apps in the past, and now focuses entirely on open source tools. They developed the lamassu-coinapult trade, wallet, and ticker plugins, and have good relationships with the Lamassu team, as well as many of their operators. If this project is approved, Deginner will ensure it is deployed on at least one network of BTMs, starting with the one in Panama City, Panama.

Special thanks to Minotaur (Head of Business Development for Dash) for making this possible.

More information: https://github.com/deginner/DashLamassuProposal | https://angel.co/ira-miller"
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We tried our best to present things correctly while obviously being at the time really excited to finally make this happen and reach the state we are in now which is there are actually dual Dash/BTC machines available. Never do we say Lamassu is doing the work or being compensated directly as that would not be accurate and we had to check with all parties involved before publishing, also it is clearly a DASH contract for 12 months is at the top, for all the reasons explained before. There is also no mention of any USD value at all, applying current FIAT value to past expenses leads to confusion, it also happened with the dash.org domain purchase, which was a great win.


So I hope this and my previous posts help clarify any other questions you may have and I look forward to working with you.

To the community: We are trying our absolute best to produce value for the network with this and any other investments we propose for approval. Robert @kot and me spent hours working on the reports trying our best to improve communication. I hope that things are much more clear now and while we don't expect everyone to agree we wanted to be as clear as possible. I personally think these projects will be instrumental in our future and had we not started when we did we would still be far from where we are now.
 
Yeah, lot of new information about this project were published in last 24 hours. I will absorb it and then I will sent you e-mail from a firm point of best available knowledge ;)
 
Icebucket said:
Im curious about the Lamassu ATM project, ....
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This project was never approved by Lamassu. The proposal seems to have been worded in such a way as to mislead people. A 3rd party company is doing the work, and it is officially not supported by Lamassu.

I strongly suggest you read the update which will be posted here soon, but is already at https://www.dashcentral.org/p/lamassu-integration which includes this document:
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B7QC8BXGNXxUdEJrOTl3UzdCcTQ

So far we have nothing to show for this project, and indications are we never will.
 
Hello as a current Lamassu owner operator the recent slack chat concerns me. This project, while it has updates and github comits etc, it lacks sufficient user base to show any progress.

I want to know why isn't there a straight forward guide on how to replace bitcoind with dashd and forego the trade manager for now and just let the machine vend DASH? Just like we saw in the videos!

Build up to features and enhancements later it's like we are going for version 3.0 before having a public beta.

Now there has been a PDF published bringing light to the amount of funding that is being spent on our longest running project outside development that has long pauses of silence between updates.

We need to see cost to result comparison, not links to trade manager and github readme files.

We need to see and learn why trade manager is important, We need to know about the Lamassu machine branch. Do you think any non-Lamassu owner / user understands what a wrench Lamassu tossed at you guys by going to multicoin machine code?

Hindsight 20/20 it would be nice to have see the updates like we had this month, every month since funding started.

I waited 8 months now to find out I still can't sell a single dash from my Lamassu, and now to learn a frustrated community is starting to down vote the project.

So here is my BIG question, if this is an ATM project, why is it being made more complex into a machine that can run games???

Quote from github:
"Git Guild is planning to hard fork from the mainstream lamassu-machine code, and build a much more versatile interface. Eventually, this interface will be host to more advanced functionality like games and shopping"
 
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