I sold all my Dash. Here is why and my view on the state of Dash

[Solarminer]

In conclusion and in regards to DASH its obvious that there is a good mix of all these features. DASH does not fall behind in any of the requirements. But it has a big potential of gaining a very big user base with instant transactions and micro payments. Governance and masternodes may have catapulted its value up to this point. But the future is mass adoption where governance and blockchain funded projects will help to drive it further.

One more comment on the "feedbak loop": The number of masternodes can be inspected here: http://178.254.23.111/~pub/Dash/Dash_Info.html
No masternode owner is bound to hold the collateral longer than he wants. It can be sold as soon as required. The assumption that at some point suddenly a large number will be liquidated is simply wrong. And 1000 DASH for a couple of nodes is not a big factor. In Bitcoin thousands of cold wallets exist with bigger collateral and higher volatility in the Bitcoin market. The bigger question is if there is a better medium to long term investment. But that is a point that hits all altcoins as we can see every day - Bitcoin goes up then altcoins go down and vice versa.

Dash HAD the best mix of features. They will soon be passed by. I will just leave the coins out so it doesn't sound like I am trying push users away from Dash.

• One coin has instant locked transaction in .4 seconds that are respendable in 1 minute. (far cry from 1 second and respendable in 15 minutes)
• One coin has mixing that takes about 45 minutes. (far cry from the 2 days it takes Dash)
• Other coins mix when they spend so no wait at all.
• One coin has a dual address system so one address is always in a private/mixed network and the other is public. Sending private to private is always fungible and anonymous.
• One coin has a variable block size
• A few coins have a governance system and more will be adding it.
• 2 coins have the magic API wallet system. One is already testing an API wallet.
• One coin has a separate backed and lightweight frontend with all the user options.
• Lightning and/or Thunder could actually work.
• Many coins have wallets with built in market places, coin loaning options, exchanges inside wallet, 2nd layer assets,

There are a lot of good technologies out there. One coin in particular has many of these features and is not wasting time talking about how to spend budget money on advertising. lawyers, or conferences. They are just writing code and give solid weekly updates.

I think the feedback loop with masternodes will not look like a drop in masternodes. There are are more and more coins put into Dash every day from block rewards. So the number of masternodes will keep growing. The problem is that the value of masternodes will fall. Once enough of a drop happens, the budgets will get smaller, and that further causes a collapse. It could be saved, but the mistakes I have seen make a drop likely.

 

[Solarminer]

It would be a mistake for masternode operators to use past market performance/price momentum to influence calculation of future ROI. The feedback loop you are describing is called FOMO or panic selling, which is a factor for all tradeable currencies. The ROI for owning a masternode is a dampening factor on this, not an accelerating factor, because of the inverse relationship between ROI and masternode count.

I see what you are getting at. Masternode earnings are canceled out at about a 5% loss in the price of dash/year. And there is an incentive to keep a node going since it takes some time to setup. So you have that sunk cost of setup stopping you from having to do it again. So if Dash is dropping more than 5% investors are losing ground. Actually, the Dash appreciation has been far more influential than the rewards in the first part of this year. You would have seen a 300% gain if you timed it right. If you get an extra 10% from rewards that is just some gravy.

The fundamental direction of Dash has changed from last year. So I wouldn't put too much value on what happened up until now to what will happen in the future.

There are coins with a lower inflation rate. So comparing a coin that is inflating at 15% a year like Dash is not going to do as well as one that is only inflating at 1% a year. That 15% in coins needs to be paid by new buyers for the price to stay stable. If there are no new buyers, price drops.

 

[alex-ru]

... One coin ..

Two coin, three coin, ...

We will see dozens of Dash Evolution clones soon... We have seen all this before - with Bitcoin forks...

You can copy everything and "improve" some variables, ... but... they will be just another copy with no long-term value, because they become out-of-date soon after cloning.

Dash has the most powerful and the most protected 2-tier-decentralized Network. And it does matter in many ways...

"Network effect" will protect Masternode network from cloning the same way as it protects Bitcoin now.
Daredevils can try to play against it ... But better to play on Dash's side...

 

[Solarminer]

Two coin, three coin, ...

We will see dozens of Dash Evolution clones soon... We have seen all this before - with Bitcoin forks...

You can copy everything and "improve" some variables, ... but... they will be just another copy with no long-term value, because they become out-of-date soon after cloning.

Dash has the most powerful and the most protected 2-tier-decentralized Network. And it does matter in many ways...

"Network effect" will protect Masternode network from cloning the same way as it protects Bitcoin now.
Daredevils can try to play against it ... But better to play on Dash's side...

I am not talking about clones. There are some new and some old coins that have added features that are now better than what Dash has - including a 2 tier and 3 tier network system. One coin I didn't even mention is redesigning the internet and will have an instant and anonymous coin. I don't think you want me to put the names of all the coins here. It isn't my intent to tell people to sell Dash and buy xyz. I would much rather the developers understand some limitations and work on making improvements.

 

[alex-ru]

I would much rather the developers understand some limitations and work on making improvements.

I also want Dash team to have an "intelligence service" inside to monitor all promising crypto-projects permanently and to implement all useful technologies into Dash ahead of time...

No need to copy Bitcoin's mistake of feeling "I am the only one perfection".

 

[ashmoran]

In reality, it may even be creating negative value for the community. The reason is because it makes people not perform tasks that they would have done for free under different circumstances, but with the governance system they are unwilling to do it unless they are funded and paid. When there is no grants system people volunteer. When there is a grants system no one wants to work unless they are getting a grant. Volunteering while others get paid just feels wrong, psychologically.

As a result of this effect, the malinvestments of existing grants, and the lack of real control of development or direction despite the governance model, I would say thus far the governance system benefits are dubious.

Here is an idea that has crossed my mind once before, that I think may help solve this problem: collateralised proposals.

The weakness of the current treasury system is that payments are made entirely based on good faith. Masternode operators must vote entirely based on whether they think the developer will deliver the goods. There is a positive mathematical expectation for proposals, because if a proposal is funded, it earns X DASH, and if it fails, it earns 0 DASH; there is no negative component for failure.

The current situation is distorted because the total monthly claims on the treasury are less than the 10% maximum block reward. There is no real downside to funding everything, because there is no possibility that one proposal will deny a better one money: there is money for everything. This will change when demand exceeds supply, and only the best proposers (those judged most likely to deliver) will be funded.

One possible improvement to this would be to demand a collateral bond to back each proposal. So say someone proposes to create DashPay, BitPay for Dash, and want (for example) 100 DASH/month for 12 months. They would have to submit their proposal, but also solicit for backers. Dash savers could then bid to back the proposal. One person may pledge 1200 DASH for 10% annual return, another 1000 DASH for 8% annual return. If the project succeeds, the backer is repaid their bond plus interest; if it fails, the bond is forfeit and is reinvested into future proposals.

My examples here are simply toy illustrations. I know essentially nothing about finance, and someone with experience in investing could probably come up with more useful, practical scenarios very quickly. But the point is, it should be possible to introduce a negative component to the expectation of a proposal. This would force proposers to think and act more carefully. They would have to compete in a market for collateral, which would result in a natural interest rate for investment. Any relationship between proposers and backers would have to be handled through the existing legal system as it is not enforceable cryptographically (as far as I can see).

Would this solve the problem you describe, or are there missing pieces it doesn't address?

 

[Solarminer]

Here is an idea that has crossed my mind once before, that I think may help solve this problem: collateralised proposals.

The weakness of the current treasury system is that payments are made entirely based on good faith. Masternode operators must vote entirely based on whether they think the developer will deliver the goods. There is a positive mathematical expectation for proposals, because if a proposal is funded, it earns X DASH, and if it fails, it earns 0 DASH; there is no negative component for failure.

The current situation is distorted because the total monthly claims on the treasury are less than the 10% maximum block reward. There is no real downside to funding everything, because there is no possibility that one proposal will deny a better one money: there is money for everything. This will change when demand exceeds supply, and only the best proposers (those judged most likely to deliver) will be funded.

One possible improvement to this would be to demand a collateral bond to back each proposal. So say someone proposes to create DashPay, BitPay for Dash, and want (for example) 100 DASH/month for 12 months. They would have to submit their proposal, but also solicit for backers. Dash savers could then bid to back the proposal. One person may pledge 1200 DASH for 10% annual return, another 1000 DASH for 8% annual return. If the project succeeds, the backer is repaid their bond plus interest; if it fails, the bond is forfeit and is reinvested into future proposals.

My examples here are simply toy illustrations. I know essentially nothing about finance, and someone with experience in investing could probably come up with more useful, practical scenarios very quickly. But the point is, it should be possible to introduce a negative component to the expectation of a proposal. This would force proposers to think and act more carefully. They would have to compete in a market for collateral, which would result in a natural interest rate for investment. Any relationship between proposers and backers would have to be handled through the existing legal system as it is not enforceable cryptographically (as far as I can see).

Would this solve the problem you describe, or are there missing pieces it doesn't address?

That is interesting with a bond type requirement.

The bigger problem is the lack of reporting and apparent free rides for proposals that are from core. Almost like the masternodes are owned by core or are getting a kickback for each proposal they vote yes on.

 

[Dworf]

... One coin ...

I just hope you do not mean On?co1n (the scam). It is pretty dangerous just to mention names like that in this context because you build up a reference for unexperienced readers which will be linked over Google searches.

Regarding other cryptocurrencies there is not a single one with a comparable set of features. Broken down to single arguments there are a lot of anonymous cryptocurrencies, some with fast transactions (what is quite different from instant) and many with a different feature set. Most of them have close to zero adoption, no infrastructure and/or no tools available. Some even lack of a working GUI wallet. For DASH there is a working infrastructure with debit cards, all kind of wallets, market presence on major exchanges and fast paced adoption. Even without Evolution there are many reasons to use DASH right now.

By the way - the headline of this thread reminds me to Mike Hearn's announcement: "I will no longer be taking part in Bitcoin development and have sold all my coins."

 

[Solarminer]

I just hope you do not mean On?co1n (the scam). It is pretty dangerous just to mention names like that in this context because you build up a reference for unexperienced readers which will be linked over Google searches.

Regarding other cryptocurrencies there is not a single one with a comparable set of features. Broken down to single arguments there are a lot of anonymous cryptocurrencies, some with fast transactions (what is quite different from instant) and many with a different feature set. Most of them have close to zero adoption, no infrastructure and/or no tools available. Some even lack of a working GUI wallet. For DASH there is a working infrastructure with debit cards, all kind of wallets, market presence on major exchanges and fast paced adoption. Even without Evolution there are many reasons to use DASH right now.

By the way - the headline of this thread reminds me to Mike Hearn's announcement: "I will no longer be taking part in Bitcoin development and have sold all my coins."

Absolutely did not mean one coin. Yes One Coin is a scam. I was just trying to be generic with amount of different options are available. Read the shadowcash thread posted above for the hint on the coin that does have the key Dash features.

 

[David]

Dash HAD the best mix of features. They will soon be passed by. I will just leave the coins out so it doesn't sound like I am trying push users away from Dash.

• One coin has instant locked transaction in .4 seconds that are respendable in 1 minute. (far cry from 1 second and respendable in 15 minutes)
• One coin has mixing that takes about 45 minutes. (far cry from the 2 days it takes Dash)
• Other coins mix when they spend so no wait at all.
• One coin has a dual address system so one address is always in a private/mixed network and the other is public. Sending private to private is always fungible and anonymous.
• One coin has a variable block size
• A few coins have a governance system and more will be adding it.
• 2 coins have the magic API wallet system. One is already testing an API wallet.
• One coin has a separate backed and lightweight frontend with all the user options.
• Lightning and/or Thunder could actually work.
• Many coins have wallets with built in market places, coin loaning options, exchanges inside wallet, 2nd layer assets,

Do any of them implement all of these things together, in one coin?

There are a lot of good technologies out there. One coin in particular has many of these features and is not wasting time talking about how to spend budget money on advertising. lawyers, or conferences. They are just writing code and give solid weekly updates.

That's probably why I've never heard of them. As I've said before, you could invent the cure for cancer and without advertising, it would be worthless.

I want to make an observation about Zcash, since it was mentioned. I think it's a really neat coin and I'll be interested in following it. Its value has already declined from a maximum of $2.5 million per coin to $600 per coin...a lot of people lost a lot of money on the first day. But eventually it will stabilize.

In any event, one of the weaknesses of Zcash is, as the development team freely states, that it's impossible to verify how many Zcash there are. You can never know for certain that somebody isn't out there creating tons and tons of Zcash, because there's no transparency to the blockchain. That's great in terms of privacy, and sucky in terms of making sure the software is working as intended.

 

[Solarminer]

• Do any of them implement all of these things together, in one coin?

https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/...-view-on-the-state-of-dash.11416/#post-107140

 

[IOS Dev]

Two coin, three coin, ...

We will see dozens of Dash Evolution clones soon... We have seen all this before - with Bitcoin forks....

It's likely Evolution won't be out til' late 2017 or 2018. Do you expect clones before that? I think you're comparing what Dash will be to what other coins already have. Seems like you are a little in denial of where the competition is at.

 

[Dworf]

... I was just trying to be generic with amount of different options are available. Read the shadowcash thread posted above for the hint on the coin that does have the key Dash features.

Got it - some of these coins have very interesting technologies - but all these coins have two things in common: 1. they have a market cap below 10000 BTC and 2. no infrastructure at all. They can be traded and exchanged to to other coins - that's it. Not comparable to DASH regarding their use case network. If you jump from one good coin to the next one every few months you will miss something out and other user will not do it.

 

[Solarminer]

Ok, to be clear, here are the NON Dash clone projects that will have the API communication like Evolution that talks directly to nodes without needing the blockchain. (This is not electrum that requires external servers, bitcoin and other coins already have that). Any of these could get the top dog spot.

NEM - Already have masternodes and released alpha version API wallet as of 3 weeks ago. (Top 12 market cap)
VCASH - staking (soon voting) nodes, that will have already have instant locked transactions and mixing. API wallet is in Alpha prerelease - weeks away.

Although these are not API wallets, they have the same capability of instant with added ability to mix and combing transactions.
Zcash - Thunder Network (fast transactions) 6 months out
Bitcoin - 13.1 with segwit released, once activated will enable Lightning. Winter release possible for lightning.

 

[UdjinM6]

...

• One coin has instant locked transaction in .4 seconds that are respendable in 1 minute. (far cry from 1 second and respendable in 15 minutes)
• One coin has mixing that takes about 45 minutes. (far cry from the 2 days it takes Dash)
• Other coins mix when they spend so no wait at all.
• One coin has a dual address system so one address is always in a private/mixed network and the other is public. Sending private to private is always fungible and anonymous.
• One coin has a variable block size
• A few coins have a governance system and more will be adding it.
• 2 coins have the magic API wallet system. One is already testing an API wallet.
• One coin has a separate backed and lightweight frontend with all the user options.
• Lightning and/or Thunder could actually work.
• Many coins have wallets with built in market places, coin loaning options, exchanges inside wallet, 2nd layer assets,

...

- depends on size of network and blockchain confirmation count, we could do 1 conf spendable IX - does it really better?
- interactive mixing time depends on number of online participants and denom they have, will be improved in 12.1 however with multisession mixing
- yep, non-interactive mixing via crypto tricks is nice in terms of usage but utxo is bloated and doesn't scale
- yep, but initial setup is hard to do trustless and I would never trust such setup 100%
- that's not a problem at all when your cap is way above you usage, you don't use "unused space" (i.e. we don't produce blocks 1 mb each because the limit is 1 mb)
- good for them
- what's magic api? the one kind of dapi I know of is actually centralized even though they claim the opposite.
- it's the question of wallet implementation, not a network specific thing, just use Electrum-Dash.
- yep, that would work for Dash too, there are however still way too many questions about payment channel routing and synchronizing
- it's the question of wallet implementation, not a network specific thing, you can replicate the same but why? Does anyone really use it?

...
There are a lot of good technologies out there. One coin in particular has many of these features and is not wasting time talking about how to spend budget money on advertising. lawyers, or conferences. They are just writing code and give solid weekly updates.
...

I actually partially agree with that one - we should deliver updates more often. Changes in 12.1 were not so radical originally and it could be delivered in spring/summer 2016 with old budgeting system and tons of fixes but... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ The hope is that with a proper foundations for evo layed out in 12.1 we can then deliver updates at a faster rate.

...
I think the feedback loop with masternodes will not look like a drop in masternodes. There are are more and more coins put into Dash every day from block rewards. So the number of masternodes will keep growing. The problem is that the value of masternodes will fall. Once enough of a drop happens, the budgets will get smaller, and that further causes a collapse. It could be saved, but the mistakes I have seen make a drop likely.

That could be true but I don't really think it is - masternodes are long term investments in general imo and for such things short term fluctuations is not a big deal, it's long term roi which matters. Speaking of budgets, the bigger the budget the higher the potential but even now there are not enough valuable proposals and we had like 800+ DASH "burned" in latest budget iirc.

 

[ec1warc1]

my two cents... if you are an investor, Dash is in a great position right now as a buy. Why?

1. Price is relatively stable, does't go up or down much, and it seems to be at a solid floor at about $9
2. Dash has a large team of developers working on improvements with announcements of what will be released and when, features which will likely drive the price up.
3. Dash holds public quarterly meetings, you can get to know who is working on Dash and what they are up to
4. Dash is the only digital currency supported by two tiers, miners and masternodes
5. Instant send - the only digital currency ready for "Point of Sale" purchases

There are more reasons, but those are solid ones.

 

[AndyDark]

what pointless thread / content. someone sold all there Dash...then is here talking about it..other people like other coins better...but strangely are here talking about it...brand new accounts... haven't we got better things to be doing, Dashers?

 

[GrandMasterDash]

The single biggest problem with all these coins, including dash, is that none of them are brave enough to apply the core principles of a blockchain to the coin itself... which ironic, to say the least. I'm particularly thinking of voting and supply chains. Yes, the blockchain could revolutionise voting and supply chains - which are external functions - but how about those core principles to development? Right now, dash core go about their secretive wheeling and dealing and then justify everything by saying it's normal business practise... yeah right, so much for transparency of supply chains.

What we need is a coin that is brave enough to lock down the source and binaries, implementing voting and supply chains such that they would have to ask us users / MNOs to make changes... haha, can you imagine that happening?? - ya see how it is... "crypto is getting rid of the FED / central bankers but please don't take our geek powers away!!!" .... hypocrites, all of them.

And as previously said, coins like NEM are implementing supernodes and a lot of other unique features. Synereo is applying formal verification to make their products bomb proof - way to go, all coins should do that! Yes, dash has some serious competition snapping at it's heels. I've been saying all this for ages and now suddenly people are waking up.

 

[Solarminer]

What we need is a coin that is brave enough to lock down the source and binaries, implementing voting and supply chains such that they would have to ask us users / MNOs to make changes... haha, can you imagine that happening?? - ya see how it is... "crypto is getting rid of the FED / central bankers but please don't take our geek powers away!!!" .... hypocrites, all of them..

Tezos is a coin going to be based on voting on code changes. It might get a lot of hype, by realistically a few key developers need to be involved in deciding which code is used, not a majority vote of people with minimal coding experience.

 

[demo]

Tezos is a coin going to be based on voting on code changes. It might get a lot of hype, by realistically a few key developers need to be involved in deciding which code is used, not a majority vote of people with minimal coding experience.

The Tezos people are stupid when saying.

Voting using tokens is unfair, it should be one person one vote.
Pragmatically, there aren’t any good ways to identify people as individuals on decentralized networks yet. From an economic standpoint, stake based voting encourages more rational behavior because the people with the greatest voice are also the ones with the most skin in the game.

Of course there is a way to identify people as individuals on decentralized networks. The cryptoparty assemblies.

And of course, this is a Déjà vu.
All the proponents of the stake based voting (Tezos and dashers included), they ignore history. This is how democracy starts. First they think that stake based voting is correct. First they think Timocracy is the correct regime. But then obvious problems appear in Timocracy (you can already observe here in dash the masternodes stupidity) and then Democracy (one person-one vote) arises.