How to bring users to the Bisq decentralised P2P exchange

PabloS

PabloS

Member
As stated by @Dworf, Bisq peer to peer trading platform is not used at all which is a shame.

Actually I have also been thinking about that lately, first by reading that article from DashForceNews praising for peer to peer decentralisation exchange and now more than ever with those rumours about banning exchanges in China or the announcement of BTCC closing (the world’s oldest bitcoin exchange) which both caused the market to plummet heavily these last days.

However, as said, nobody uses Bisq.

This is how to attract people to Bisq:

How about a proposal that’d keep an ongoing offer of dashs on that exchange ? Let’s say this is taken care of by DashForce or by the CoreTeam (pinging @mastermined and @tungfa).

In their next proposal, they’d ask for 50 dashs more than needed. Those 50 dashs would then be put on that exchange for selling.

3 months later, let’s say 50 dashs got bought. Now the Core Team or Dash Force News find itself with extra dollars that does not belong to them. The solution is easy, their next proposal will ask for less money (based on how much they got for those 50 dashs).

This way, we’d solve one side of the problem : having always “people” selling dashs on the Bisq trading platform.

Plus that definitely could solve the other side of the problem (people buying dash on that platform): those 50 dashs would be there always (and it could be raise to 1000 if ever needed !). Any people wanting to buy dash would be happy to go through that platform while, with a right advertisement, this could even bring people from other coins.

“Fearing your exchange platform might close suddenly ? Go for a decentralised one : buy dash through Bisq, the only cryptocurrency that always have peers selling some”

Bonus: we could also vote for a big donation to that exchange (hoping they’d make a nice use of it to further improve the user experience )

So here it is, I just lay out the idea for other to carry it from there.
 
"How about a proposal that’d keep an ongoing offer of dashs on that exchange ? Let’s say this is taken care of by DashForce or by the CoreTeam (pinging @mastermined and@tungfa)."

i like decentralised exchanges as much as the next guy , but it is really up to them to get and keep this rolling
"a proposal to keep a buy/ sell wall running" ?
easier said than done - u need to maintain and move these walls - putting it just up there will get u nowhere as it will be sold in no time and done
 
Tbh, he had it coming to him. I'm affraid Manfred is a little bit too idealistic / stubborn for his own good. In the early days, people such as myself told him, his development funding model was wrong, that he should choose an ongoing model similar to dash.. he never listened and insisted his way was better. We also told him to add dash as a base currency.. to his credit, he did eventually do so, but not until some considerable time had passed.

Now, we're in a situation where several decentralized options exist and none of them talk to each other, thus the volume of users is thin.

If anyone could pull this off, dash could, but I think it would require a special sub-dao / development team to incubate project ideas that would eventually become independent entities. The first basic remit would be to build a decentralized exchange with dash as the base currency and favorable / preferential rates for dash trades (non at a loss).

With dash as the base currency, we can move people away from thinking of prices in terms of fiat or bitcoin. For my own personal research, I always compare prices in bitcoin and dash. If we can get people thinking of trades in terms of dash, then other exchanges might follow our lead, and thus dash would become the new reserve.
 
I've tried to put some liquidity on bisq, but was stopped by non-intuitive interface and unclear fees/deposits required. If I won't figure how to trade there in one click, how average Joe User would?
 
tungfa said:
i like decentralised exchanges as much as the next guy , but it is really up to them to get and keep this rolling
Click to expand...
I guess you are referring to bisq responsability to get it rolling ? Yup, I agree, but I believe the point being if there was already a dash P2P exchange as @GrandMasterDash suggests, we wouldn't even talk about bisq :).

I like that idea as I see it a immediate solution to an immediate problem. That could just be the first step to then get our own p2p exchange. But who's gonna put up the proposal ? Who's gonna do it ? How long is it gonna take ? Dash is said to be focused on evolution and not smart-contract because that's what we do... so, why taking care of P2P exchange when there is one ?

GrandMasterDash said:
We also told him to add dash as a base currency.. to his credit, he did eventually do so, but not until some considerable time had passed.
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I didn't know about that but it seems that there is a history between dash and this guy and that you hold a grudge against him. I was not there so I don't have the same vision. But the problem remains the same. We can wait for other to do the stuff and be dependent of it or do it ourselves since we have the budget ourselves (being funding bisq or creating another p2p exchange).

tungfa said:
putting it just up there will get u nowhere as it will be sold in no time and done
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Isn't it exactly the point of it ? So basically, actually not even need to talk about extra 50 dashs being added to any proposal. If it is sold instantanneously, any Dash DAO could use it instead of using any other centralized echange (or is it already the case ?).

Some friends bought some dashs some days ago and there was no offer on bisq. We went through Kraken. Now, I see that as a problem and I believe something should be done about it.

GrandMasterDash said:
Now, we're in a situation where several decentralized options exist and none of them talk to each other, thus the volume of users is thin.
Click to expand...
Could you please list them ? Because from joel valenzuela article I understand bisq is the only one truely decentralized. And you talk about the "volume". The point of that idea is to solve that problem of volume. This idea is about providing an immediate way for dash user to get some dash in a decentralized way. The idea does only care about dash users and not care about bisq.

akhavr said:
I've tried to put some liquidity on bisq, but was stopped by non-intuitive interface and unclear fees/deposits required. If I won't figure how to trade there in one click, how average Joe User would?
Click to expand...
Joe User would not know how to use Kraken either (either would it on poloniex). There is no Joe User yet in crypto. If only the dash already existing community would be using bisq, we'd better off. Tutorial can also be created. No solution is perfect as first. Was Dash user intuitive at the beginning ? Of course not.

Now, I feel that the problem is more about not wanting to invest money in Bisq because it does not belong to Dash or because of a history with his creator.

So, what next ? Who is up for creating that P2P platform exchange ? Do you guys know some skilled guys for the job (and who has the time to do it) ? Or should we do just nothing about it ?
 
@Leonidas I don't have a personal grudge against the guy but it can be frustrating when several people try to show a better way and it's rejected outright. At the time it seemed like bitcoin maximalism but like I say, he did eventually come around so best I shut up about that! :)

Regarding other decentralized exchanges, there is openANX, dashous and Waves (and Bitshares, EtherDelta, Etherex, Ethfinex, NXT and Swap, but I don't think they do fiat). I believe others are in the works, including 0x maybe but I don't know much about it.

How do we get together a team of developers? It would be expensive but I would certainly vote for such an initiative.
 
My issue is that currently you're just asking to get ripped off if you use Bisq to sell Dash for fiat.
There is no way to get around the fact that bank transfers can be pulled back by the sender after the escrow has completed.
I looked into Bisq, downloaded it, made buy and sell offers, had no responses.
The interface is terrible and confusing, it's hard to even know which side of the trade you're offering until you go through the process.
Settlement works fine for crypto to crypto and also fiat to crypto because you get the benefits of permanent settlement.
Until there is a functioning distributed reputation solution it is fundamentally broken for crypto to fiat.
 
Leonidas said:
Joe User would not know how to use Kraken either (either would it on poloniex). There is no Joe User yet in crypto.
Click to expand...

Joe Causal Trader, whatever..

Leonidas said:
Now, I feel that the problem is more about not wanting to invest money in Bisq because it does not belong to Dash or because of a history with his creator.
Click to expand...

I know nothing about any previous history. I was posting just from my immediate experience.

Leonidas said:
So, what next ? Who is up for creating that P2P platform exchange ? Do you guys know some skilled guys for the job (and who has the time to do it) ? Or should we do just nothing about it ?
Click to expand...

Ripple network has DEX, so one my goals with the ripple gateway proposal was to enable ripple DEX IOU trading. Now unfortunately stuck resolving internal issues, to be delivered by the end of the year.
 
Thank you for your answers !

Dashous seems nice but, as far as I understand it, it is a platform to arrange meeting for physical exchanges, right ?
They are completing each other. It is great to have both but we really need a decentralised trading platform without leaving your home.

GrandMasterDash said:
Regarding other decentralized exchanges, there is openANX, dashous and Waves (and Bitshares, EtherDelta, Etherex, Ethfinex, NXT and Swap, but I don't think they do fiat). I believe others are in the works, including 0x maybe but I don't know much about it.
Click to expand...

OpenANX : It is still a project yet.
Waves, NXT, Bitshares, EtherDelta, Etherx, Ethfinex and Swap : If understand it correctly, those are other cryptocurrencies. So my idea doesn't apply on those one. We should be able on the exchange to buy dash with fiat and not to have to pass through another cryptocurrency.

GrandMasterDash said:
How do we get together a team of developers? It would be expensive but I would certainly vote for such an initiative.
Click to expand...

I really like this idea. I don't have the skills for it. If someone is interested to manage this it would be such a nice project for Dash.

Syntheist said:
There is no way to get around the fact that bank transfers can be pulled back by the sender after the escrow has completed.
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From their FAQ : "We only support payment methods in which chargebacks are not easy (i.e. we don’t support Paypal). (...) Bisq’s goal is to make this scenario as unattractive as possible, using three primary mechanisms..."https://bisq.network/faq/#11

But, fair enough. So, what about forking their project and thinking about how to do crypto to fiat without risking as well as making a better user interface ?
 
So, that's it ? No more answers ?

From one side we have :
  • Easy but not perfect solution with risk (the chargeback thing that will be an issue only in a few cases) which would be having Core Team and DashForce selling dashs on the bisq platform (small amounts at first to see how it goes). @thedesertlynx you have written about bisq, what would be your thought around that topic ?
  • A perfect solution that is yet to invented, developped, for which there is no team to take care of
if no one is taking care of option number 2 (I would if I had the skills), what's the reason for not going with number 1 ?
 
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Leonidas said:
So, that's it ? No more answers ?
Click to expand...

If anyone with the skills can put together a proposal to get paid to work on distributed reputation in Bisq then that's something that would help.

Having sold Dash for the community as part of a proposal, why would I expose myself to financial ruin and the project to failure by using a system that offers me no real protection?

The issue will be solved technically or not at all, running open market operations is the strategy of corrupt central banks and Dash should stay clear of such a practice.

It's rightly called price manipulation and would be a black mark against the credibility of our currency.
 
Leonidas said:
So, that's it ? No more answers ?

From one side we have :
  • Easy but not perfect solution with risk (the chargeback thing that will be an issue only in a few cases) which would be having Core Team and DashForce selling dashs on the bisq platform (small amounts at first to see how it goes). @thedesertlynx you have written about bisq, what would be your thought around that topic ?
  • A perfect solution that is yet to invented, developped, for which there is no team to take care of
if no one is taking care of option number 2 (I would if I had the skills), what's the reason for not going with number 1 ?
Click to expand...

I hear ya, and I agree a separate development team working on separate projects (such as a p2p fiat gateway) would be welcome. But unless we have the exact skills (and time) then many MNOs are left cold. I mean, dash supposedly has a HR team and project managers, but I've never once seen any of them chime in and offer to help put a team together for such projects. Somewhat dysfunctional.
 
Syntheist said:
Having sold Dash for the community as part of a proposal, why would I expose myself to financial ruin and the project to failure by using a system that offers me no real protection?
Click to expand...

I mentionned DashForce and Core Team for a reason, they risk much less than another DAO as they benefit from a very strong trust from the network in whatever they do or initiative they take. Beside, you wouldn't be risking anything if that amount you might loose is included in the proposal (or reimbursed afterwards). If any, it is the network which would be exposed to loose whatever amount we choose (5 dash for example).

About the chargeback, you seem to believe there will be a huge percentage of it. I don't because our world still works on trust and the majority of people still are honest. Or the social pressure is so high that it has a high cost to be dishonest for the majority of people that will feel bad if they do something illegal. Or like any enterprise, it will take you some time to figure out who to scam someone and not be caught. All those mecanism do that most people are just honest. I could even say 93 % of people based on the last network update in February : 12.0 and 12.1 were on at the same time, making it possible for the miner not to give the share to the Masternode. Just 7 % of them did the cheating and didn't give their share to Masternodes (Amandas video min 4.30).

That plus the three mecanism making a chargeback as unattractive as possible (limiting the amount to trade, banning currency with charge back and the locktime feature : https://bisq.network/faq/#11). But I get it that you are not satisfied with that. Agree to disagree. But I still believe that an initiative like that would put some more light on that problem, hence having much more people putting their brain to solve the problem than we have right now.

Syntheist said:
It's rightly called price manipulation and would be a black mark against the credibility of our currency.
Click to expand...
Maybe I don't have the knowledge for this but I don't see how exchanging your money in a P2P plateform instead of doing it on Kraken or whatever other centralized platform is qualified as price manipulation or the "strategy of corrupt central bank"

GrandMasterDash said:
I hear ya, and I agree a separate development team working on separate projects (such as a p2p fiat gateway) would be welcome. But unless we have the exact skills (and time) then many MNOs are left cold. I mean, dash supposedly has a HR team and project managers, but I've never once seen any of them chime in and offer to help put a team together for such projects. Somewhat dysfunctional.
Click to expand...
I agree with you too :). I will go study programming and in two years time I'll come and make a proposal then ;) ;)
Joke aside, if anybody has indeed the skills, I guess we are in a cul-de-sac with topic / idea and will just have to wait for some messy to appear.
 
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PabloS said:
Thank you for this review !
Bisq with some improvements, especially about the user experience and the collateral requirement, could really become a great asset to reinforce cryptocurrency.
Click to expand...

I agree. The first thing would be to find a workaround for the collateral system, and the second would be a "basic mode" for people who just want to buy or sell without all those advanced trading options.
 
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