Development Update - June 2, 2015

fulltimegeek said:
A purely democratic system never has worked and never will. There is a reason why the USA was founded as a constitutional republic and became a shining beacon to all the world until the yeast in government rose. Nor does the word democracy ever appear in the Constitution or Declaration of Independence. A pure democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" Ben Franklin

“A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.” Thomas Jefferson

“Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.” John Adams

If Evan is trying to push Dash towards a purely democratic governance, I will fight tooth and nail against it.
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Couldn't it be argued that the Human is the problem is the democratic equation? Due to to their inability to leave emotions out of it? Perhaps this is the best form of democracy one ruled by the machines. How else is skynet going to start?

You mention "If Evan" is trying. You do remember that it was the voters inside the class that asked Evan to continue. He simply put it up for debate and the majority decided to support it? How does that have anything to do with Evan pushing anything? Free markets move as they please. Sure he nudges it here and there but he isn't trying to make more decisions he is trying to build a protocol to allow us to govern ourselves?
 
coingun said:
Couldn't it be argued that the Human is the problem is the democratic equation? Due to to their inability to leave emotions out of it? Perhaps this is the best form of democracy one ruled by the machines. How else is skynet going to start?

You mention "If Evan" is trying. You do remember that it was the voters inside the class that asked Evan to continue. He simply put it up for debate and the majority decided to support it? How does that have anything to do with Evan pushing anything? Free markets move as they please. Sure he nudges it here and there but he isn't trying to make more decisions he is trying to build a protocol to allow us to govern ourselves?
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Maybe this needs a new thread to save spamming this one up with political arguments, the discussion on what point was reached with figures is an important one to have right.

The definition of democracy's been distorted into all shapes and forms over the years, its practically hypocrisy to call what we have in politics today democracy so it could be worth bearing in mind what was the norm when those quotes where made, pitchforks and flaming torches could be considered the ultimate form of democracy and building a platform that could accommodate that... ;) The platform's the important bit, if 80% think 51% ruling over 49% if wrong then it gets changed, maybe 75-25, maybe something floating, who knows? The means of bringing up issues, discussing them, gauging consensus, seeing results, its an evolutionary process.
 
This may be a little off topic but one more thing that has been on my mind is vote bribery.

Should votes be anonymous to prevent MNOs from selling their votes to third-parties (lobbyists)? I believe James D'Angelo from World Bitcoin Network(WBN) calls this "The Cardboard Box Reform". Here is a great video from WBN's YouTube channel discussing the matter:

 
fulltimegeek said:
This may be a little off topic but one more thing that has been on my mind is vote bribery.

Should votes be anonymous to prevent MNOs from selling their votes to third-parties (lobbyists)? I believe James D'Angelo from World Bitcoin Network(WBN) calls this "The Cardboard Box Reform". Here is a great video from WBN's YouTube channel discussing the matter:

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Lol, noscript was blocking the vid and had a link to another of his copied ready for a reply before seeing it :)

Started a new thread to reply here:
https://dashtalk.org/threads/voting-system-and-difficulties-with-democracy.5077/
 
BrainShutdown said:
Can someone from the dev team please clear this doubt and kill the pork barrel ghost once and for all? :rolleyes:
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As I recall, Evan wanted to set up a quorum, a minimum number of MN votes, and then, from those, 51% required to pass a proposal. As it is, though, many proposals will likely not see the light of day as funding can not exceed 10% of block rewards. On the other hand, if DASH should go up in value significantly, many projects would be able to be funded. In the end, if DASH is worth a fortune each, 10% of the block rewards could end up being a pork barrel. But I hardly see that happening any time soon. The funds are pretty much desperately needed just for core development, not to mention marketing.

I've said it before, but if it should end up that the funds available far exceed DASH needs, those funds could always go back into the block rewards over time for even distribution.

I don't like the idea of funds being wasted, but I think this setup is very strong, and if it starts to look wasteful, I'm sure we could patch it up via a solution such as I've stated above. Masternode owners do NOT have to vote for everything that is proposed. They should have, in my opinion, a guide to determined if the project being proposed is something that should be funded in the first place by the community, or if it's a project that should be funded by interested parties (in other words, all projects should benefit DASH as a whole, not just a few insider people).

Anyway, I've tried compiling 0.12.0 but it's just forking the test network, LOL.
 
fulltimegeek said:
A purely democratic system never has worked and never will. There is a reason why the USA was founded as a constitutional republic and became a shining beacon to all the world until the yeast in government rose. Nor does the word democracy ever appear in the Constitution or Declaration of Independence. A pure democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" Ben Franklin

“A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.” Thomas Jefferson

“Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.” John Adams

If Evan is trying to push Dash towards a purely democratic governance, I will fight tooth and nail against it.
Click to expand...

Actually, I think this is 110% on topic. And in fact, this is why DASH is not being set up as a democracy. The way this will be set up, is Masternode owners, who have a great investment in the success of DASH, will actually make the votes, not unlike being an electoral college. The website being set up for proposals will have forums where the projects will be hashed out by everyone. If it works as intended, all points of view will be welcomed, discussions will happen, and in the end, conclusions will be made. These arguments will be used to persuade Masternode owners to vote a certain way. In fact, it could be included to have a forum vote, to show support or lack there of to masternode owners. However, like the electoral college, if the masternode owners see things differently, they can vote against the popular vote (and I can only see this happening if the popular vote were unwise or detrimental to DASH.)

I really like all those quotes you've posted, and believe me, Evan and company are well aware of these issues.
 
JGCMiner said:
This is my understand based on Evan's comments in that thread and the first post in this thread.

1. The block reward will be permanently reduced to 90% of its current value. This for all blocks (other than the superblocks) for all time. MNs will eventually get 60% of this 90% and miners 40%.
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Am I maths'ing wrong here. 60+40 != 90?

JGCMiner said:
2. At the end of the month the MNs would have voted on some projects and prioritized the ones that were approved.

3. If the total cost of funding all approved projects is <10% of the current block reward then that exact amount is generated in a superblock and payed directly to the individual projects. The difference between 10% and the actual amount needed to fund all approved projects is NEVER generated. Thus in this case, compared to current expected number of minted coins -- LESS coins are minted.

4. If the total cost of funding all approved projects is >10% of the current block reward then the top X number of projects are funded based on the priority set by the MNs. Then exactly 10% is generated in the superblock and payed directly to the individual projects. Thus is this case, the total number of coins minted is UNCHANGED compared to the current expectation.
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Other then that are we going with this as the official description?
 
Ok I sound pretty stupid reading my old posts. It's like I'm going from understanding to not understanding. I think the hardest part for me to wrap my head around was how we are talking about "the network" doing this and "the blockchain" doing that. When really it's the fact that we aren't doing something that is actually doing something. IE: Not paying the 10% daily to be able to pay it at the end of the month. Seriously how high did Evan have to get to figure this out. It's elegantly simply and so very brilliant. I have with a lot of help from moocowmoo re-written this page now that I think summarizes it pretty well.

https://dashdot.io/alpha/?page_id=94

Cause Math's cool! How'd they get the 8000 dash a month number? Again this is all moocowmoo

5 * 576 * 30 * .1 = 8640 Dash per month
min block reward * blocks per day * days * 10% = 8640 Dash per month
 
darkwing said:
As always that looks like a massive amount of work accomplished. Thank you and well done team.

No mention of blinding though?
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Seems like a valid point. Isn't the blinding supposed to give the needed anonymity to transactions? Surprising indeed to see no mention of it in a next major release.
The removal of the reference node seems the only big step forward.
 
darkpassenger said:
Isn't the blinding supposed to give the needed anonymity to transactions?
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In my understanding, Masternode blinding is good to prevent attack to masternodes while the anonymity of transactions are already done by darksend mixing. For users who would like to create tx from anonymous place , proxy or tor network can be used as option by the wallet to connect the network
 
darkpassenger said:
Seems like a valid point. Isn't the blinding supposed to give the needed anonymity to transactions? Surprising indeed to see no mention of it in a next major release.
The removal of the reference node seems the only big step forward.
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The voting/payout system is a huge and important undertaking too.

I mentioned the blinding as it was described as the best thing since sliced bread and lowered the darksend rounds required but then didn't materialise.
With everything going on it's understandable that the complexity it would introduce to the new system would be painful but a status/roadmap position update on it would be good.
 
Some more updates from Moocow regarding the shift in payment schedule:

https://masternode.me/downloads/dash-block-budgeting.png
https://masternode.me/downloads/v12_reward_calc.txt

every 16616 blocks a cycle occurs, each cycle may create up to 100 superblocks. Superblocks are paid out in order of vote count.

They're stepping the block rewards down 2.5% at a time across 6 months https://github.com/dashpay/dash/blob/eaf7b940a68f5176f90fb4e2db8ca460a060a0d9/src/main.cpp#L1544

and the masternodes cap at 50% (changed) https://github.com/dashpay/dash/blob/eaf7b940a68f5176f90fb4e2db8ca460a060a0d9/src/main.cpp#L1575

node payments stay at current levels for the next 9 months https://github.com/dashpay/dash/blo...b4e2db8ca460a060a0d9/src/main.cpp#L1573-L1574

So to recap our minimums will drift from 2.25 to 2.025 across those 9 months sorry, forgot to remove the 7% -- 2.089 is minimum now -- will drift down to 1.88 brace yourself. Payouts are as good as they're going to get.

MN reward schedule changed in v12. Capped @ 45% for 9 months, today's minimums are the largest we'll see.
 
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moli said:
You will be forked off if you use it on mainnet? :)
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vilka.jpg
 
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