DASH's first killer app?

[halso]

I've recently heard both AA and Kim dotcom talking about micro payments in the media space. Think paying 2 cents for a newspaper article or youtube view instead of a credit card subscription or being subjected to ads.

It would seem that DASH is much more suited than Bitcoin given instantX functionality. This could work like a travel card i.e. once your balance goes below a certain amount, your DASH balance gets automatically topped up by $50.

I wonder if the experience gained in the protonmail roll out would assist in creating something like this?

http://fortune.com/2016/08/05/bitcoin-megaupload-kim-dotcom/

 

[CURTISS COTT]

Hi. I think I have an idea for DASH's 1st "KILLER APP". As a system's analyst, I'm a big picture sorta guy and I tend to spot trouble in emerging systems from a distance. I have a 30+ year history in software development and I'm well rounded in a number of technical disciplines. My IQ punches into the genius range and I have been enthusiastic about crypto for several years already. I've spotted - what I believe will eventually become a big problem with BitCoin and may actually spell it's demise over the long term. My understanding of DASH indicates that the same peril exists. Simply, -the flaw is having a fixed number of "coins" that will be minted. The human nature to lose things coupled with a transaction count that will grow geometrically means that eventual token loss will cause recession & depression of the currency over time. This has ALWAYS been the historical case. In the USA for example - depression hit in the 1930's when the circulating currency amount was decreased dramatically. DEFLATION didn't "FIX IT". It never does. So here's a way that DASH can address that issue and upwardly drive it's value as a killer app. Allow the miners solve an "Interest HASH" to PAY INTEREST (SIMPLE - NOT COMPOUND) to unspent balances that have been dormant on the blockchain for a period of time. And, of course reward the miners for paying interest with the same amount paid to the solving miner. I propose that a balance that has been dormant for a year enters a pool that signifies its eligibility for an interest payment that is 7.14% of the original balance and that the miner who solves the (yet to be written HASH) qualifies for the same payout. After (7) consecutive annual interest payments with no other activity - the original balance loses 50% of its eligibility per year after that. (I.E: Year 8 it is eligible for HALF(7.14%)...Year 9 - QUARTER(7.14%)... Year 10 Eighth(7.14%)...). You understand the progression. The synergy this would provide to the DASH network would be remarkable. LOST currency would effectively be replaced roughly every decade (via payouts to the miners & those keeping a DASH savings). People who buy DASH and hold it would be rewarded - while long term hoarding would be discouraged beyond 7 years by diminishing interest rewards. Yes - this is likely a hard fork, but will add stability and incentive to the DASH network like nothing else. DASH can keep it's mission goal of 22 million tokens produced, but can ADD the network safety net of INTEREST in order to never allow token number attrition to cause a currency crisis. Feedback?

 

[halso]

Its a misconception to think there will be a shortage of coins. Each dash can be divided into an infinite number of sub units.

The weakness you point out is actualually DASH's greatest strength. I.e. The value of your investment will not be diluted by arbitary increases in the money supply (unlike FIAT where central banks turn on the printing press and destroy the value of your savings).

 

[demo]

Its a misconception to think there will be a shortage of coins. Each dash can be divided into an infinite number of sub units.

Yes. And you are looking for an infinite number of stupid who will accept the fact that the Dash generation of 2014-2016 (and their biological descendants) holds intact coins, and all the rest generations hold tiny sub untis.

Are the morons infinite? Maybe they are, if you consider all the previous generations that believed in the gold standard, in kings, princesses and presidents. So, by following the scientific method, the past shows that the morons are infinite and that Dash will survive. But not everything is science, and the past not always predicts the future.

 

[halso]

Yes. And you are looking for an infinite number of stupid who will accept the fact that the Dash generation of 2014-2016 (and their biological descendants) holds intact coins, and all the rest generations hold tiny sub untis.

Are the morons infinite? Maybe they are, if you consider all the previous generations that believed in the gold standard, in kings, princesses and presidents. So, by following the scientific method, the past shows that the morons are infinite and that Dash will survive. But not everything is science, and the past not always predicts the future.

@demo we had this conversation before. You dont have to worry about future generations

 

[CURTISS COTT]

With due respect: DEflation NEVER WORKS. And - presume that DASH grows in value because of attrition until (1000) are left. This WILL eventually happen if attrition is allowed to occur. Now imagine that each dash is worth $1,000,000,000 in today's dollars as a result of that. Now presume that several persons each holds 25 of them. Do you understand the logistical nightmare that scenario represents to all the holders of DASH fragments? A few bad trades at that scale would dash the entire DASH economy against the rocks of ill-will! For the sake of posterity - this should be dealt with NOW. And the easiest way to deal with it is to implement some sort of uncirculated currency recovery algorithm and making one that PAYS INTEREST IS, what I believe to be, the KILLER APP of all CRYPTO APPS. In the "real world", someone who is lost for 7 years is presumed to be legally dead and any life insurance policy pays out. Likewise - setting up a secondary payment system in DASH that regenerates uncirculated currency roughly every 7 years would roughly emulate that scenario. BitCoin's limit of 24million does not consider the effect of global disaster on the network. Currently - neither does DASH. A thinking person will contemplate things like "What if India & Pakistan nuke it out. What if 15% of all DASH holders are suddenly dead and their DASH-tokens locked down on the blockchain forever? I tell you: the lack of circulation is going to severely hurt the network. Deflation will begin to occur but it will be PAINFUL - it always is. Wouldn't it be nice that if on the day after the anniversary of the disaster that 7.4% of the locked dash became available for reissuance thru the miners? Rinse, repeat annually over the next decade (and then some)? Let common sense prevail. Good day.

 

[GrandMasterDash]

With due respect: DEflation NEVER WORKS. And - presume that DASH grows in value because of attrition until (1000) are left. This WILL eventually happen if attrition is allowed to occur. Now imagine that each dash is worth $1,000,000,000 in today's dollars as a result of that. Now presume that several persons each holds 25 of them. Do you understand the logistical nightmare that scenario represents to all the holders of DASH fragments? A few bad trades at that scale would dash the entire DASH economy against the rocks of ill-will! For the sake of posterity - this should be dealt with NOW. And the easiest way to deal with it is to implement some sort of uncirculated currency recovery algorithm and making one that PAYS INTEREST IS, what I believe to be, the KILLER APP of all CRYPTO APPS. In the "real world", someone who is lost for 7 years is presumed to be legally dead and any life insurance policy pays out. Likewise - setting up a secondary payment system in DASH that regenerates uncirculated currency roughly every 7 years would roughly emulate that scenario. BitCoin's limit of 24million does not consider the effect of global disaster on the network. Currently - neither does DASH. A thinking person will contemplate things like "What if India & Pakistan nuke it out. What if 15% of all DASH holders are suddenly dead and their DASH-tokens locked down on the blockchain forever? I tell you: the lack of circulation is going to severely hurt the network. Deflation will begin to occur but it will be PAINFUL - it always is. Wouldn't it be nice that if on the day after the anniversary of the disaster that 7.4% of the locked dash became available for reissuance thru the miners? Rinse, repeat annually over the next decade (and then some)? Let common sense prevail. Good day.

You should take a look at some of the coins with inflation; peercoin is quite good. I agree the perfect crypto would have both inflation and rewards, but dash isn't one of them.

 

[stan.distortion]

You should take a look at some of the coins with inflation; peercoin is quite good. I agree the perfect crypto would have both inflation and rewards, but dash isn't one of them.

Currencies could be tweaked in all kinds of ways to improve conditions, that's practically the foundation of Keynesian economics and scrip used that way has saved many economies from total collapse but at some point (the point we're at now imo) it all starts to look like economic voodoo and a simple fixed supply (like gold or most cryptos) wins out because it just makes sense. I'm not saying that's right, personally I think any fixed supply system will eventually grind to a halt without additional checks and balances but a system without them will always look more attractive because they inevitably mean someone looses out. Recirculating stagnant funds isn't a good one imho, imagine suggesting all the jewellery in the world that hadn't been worn for more than four years would be magicked away and put back into circulation, would folks support it? In economic terms it would be a good move but on a personal level it would be an extremely bad one.

 

[CURTISS COTT]

Currencies could be tweaked in all kinds of ways to improve conditions, that's practically the foundation of Keynesian economics and scrip used that way has saved many economies from total collapse but at some point (the point we're at now imo) it all starts to look like economic voodoo and a simple fixed supply (like gold or most cryptos) wins out because it just makes sense. I'm not saying that's right, personally I think any fixed supply system will eventually grind to a halt without additional checks and balances but a system without them will always look more attractive because they inevitably mean someone looses out. Recirculating stagnant funds isn't a good one imho, imagine suggesting all the jewellery in the world that hadn't been worn for more than four years would be magicked away and put back into circulation, would folks support it? In economic terms it would be a good move but on a personal level it would be an extremely bad one.

Here's the glaring FLAW to your argument. The FIXED amount of GOLD is merely a theoretical number. There is PLENTY OF GOLD STILL BEING MINED. This is true with ALL precious metals. New supply is constantly being introduced. And THAT PRINCIPLE is the principle behind my suggestion: Introduce a HARD FORK that will allow DASH to replace lost tokens over time by paying Interest to stagnant tokens on the BlockChain so that lost tokens are gradually replaced about once per decade with payments to DASH holders and miners that acts like simple interest.
Good day.

 

[GeauxSheaux]

Here's the glaring FLAW to your argument. The FIXED amount of GOLD is merely a theoretical number. There is PLENTY OF GOLD STILL BEING MINED. This is true with ALL precious metals. New supply is constantly being introduced. And THAT PRINCIPLE is the principle behind my suggestion: Introduce a HARD FORK that will allow DASH to replace lost tokens over time by paying Interest to stagnant tokens on the BlockChain so that lost tokens are gradually replaced about once per decade with payments to DASH holders and miners that acts like simple interest.
Good day.

That would be a good idea for a new crypto. You could probably launch it and get some followers, because a lot of people have trouble with the idea of deflationary currencies. You're committed to your cause, and rightfully so, but surely you realize that a currency that's currently got a $300+ million market cap won't be hard forking to re-write its money supply algorithm.

 

[CURTISS COTT]

I believe the decision to FORK is up to the consensus mechanism. And if an idea is a good idea and can be effectively coded - then one would presume that common-sense would prevail.

 

[GrandMasterDash]

Currencies could be tweaked in all kinds of ways to improve conditions, that's practically the foundation of Keynesian economics and scrip used that way has saved many economies from total collapse but at some point (the point we're at now imo) it all starts to look like economic voodoo and a simple fixed supply (like gold or most cryptos) wins out because it just makes sense. I'm not saying that's right, personally I think any fixed supply system will eventually grind to a halt without additional checks and balances but a system without them will always look more attractive because they inevitably mean someone looses out. Recirculating stagnant funds isn't a good one imho, imagine suggesting all the jewellery in the world that hadn't been worn for more than four years would be magicked away and put back into circulation, would folks support it? In economic terms it would be a good move but on a personal level it would be an extremely bad one.

Yes, well, I wasn't agreeing with the OP regarding stagnant addresses, I was simply suggesting that a ying-yang approach of inflation and reward (or tax and interest) is a good idea.

 

[spiralus]

Yes, well, I wasn't agreeing with the OP regarding stagnant addresses, I was simply suggesting that a ying-yang approach of inflation and reward (or tax and interest) is a good idea.

If Dash inflation goes to zero, there will not be much tendency to spend it if you have 'money' in some other currencies that are inflationary. This somewhat defeats the purpose of Dash being 'digital cash'.

 

[stan.distortion]

Yes, well, I wasn't agreeing with the OP regarding stagnant addresses, I was simply suggesting that a ying-yang approach of inflation and reward (or tax and interest) is a good idea.

Sorry, I wasn't intending to imply that, it was more a general reply to the thread. Pinging @toknormal on this as he started another thread a few days ago along similar lines and I think he hit the nail on the head with it:
https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/things-to-think-about-as-a-community.13407/

What he's suggesting there (if I'm reading it right) is separating the properties of money and imho that's a damn good idea because practically every suggestion I see on tweaking properties of money addresses the symptoms but overlooks the cause and that cause is a fundamental problem with the properties of money, the dual property of both a store of value and a unit of exchange.

In a recent discussion I'd mentioned a real world example of that type of situation and didn't realise it at the time. It was on gold as money and the reasons why its remained stable for centuries in some situations and collapsed horribly in others, a huge subject in its self and outside the scope of this thread but the example was personal banking in the middle east. In that part of the world (and many others as far as I know) it's very common for savings to be in gold with fiat only used for day to day convenience, a dual economy with the store of value and the unit of exchange having different properties. In the west we're heavily indoctrinated to a single kind of money but other parts of the world think differently and when considered from that point of view the unit of exchange could have much better properties for carrying out that role than the multitude of fiat currencies currently in use (it's very common for a trader to accept whatever fiat you have, dollars, euro, local currency, etc.).

Something else that cannot be ignored (yet hardly ever gets discussed) is taxes. We'd all love them to vanish without a trace and stop being a constant drain but the cold hard truth is millions of people would suffer very badly if crypto made taxation impossible. The real problem is lack of competition to drive efficient use of tax revenue but that's another story, tax is an economy in its own right and has different properties from either a general purpose store of value or unit of exchange, properties that can be far better optimised by treating it as a separate economy than tying it to a single form of fiat currency. That's another huge subject in its own right and probably better treated as an entirely different form of crypto but interaction between it and other cryptocurrencies is an essential part of the big picture.

 

[GrandMasterDash]

Sorry, I wasn't intending to imply that, it was more a general reply to the thread. Pinging @toknormal on this as he started another thread a few days ago along similar lines and I think he hit the nail on the head with it:
https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/things-to-think-about-as-a-community.13407/

What he's suggesting there (if I'm reading it right) is separating the properties of money and imho that's a damn good idea because practically every suggestion I see on tweaking properties of money addresses the symptoms but overlooks the cause and that cause is a fundamental problem with the properties of money, the dual property of both a store of value and a unit of exchange.

In a recent discussion I'd mentioned a real world example of that type of situation and didn't realise it at the time. It was on gold as money and the reasons why its remained stable for centuries in some situations and collapsed horribly in others, a huge subject in its self and outside the scope of this thread but the example was personal banking in the middle east. In that part of the world (and many others as far as I know) it's very common for savings to be in gold with fiat only used for day to day convenience, a dual economy with the store of value and the unit of exchange having different properties. In the west we're heavily indoctrinated to a single kind of money but other parts of the world think differently and when considered from that point of view the unit of exchange could have much better properties for carrying out that role than the multitude of fiat currencies currently in use (it's very common for a trader to accept whatever fiat you have, dollars, euro, local currency, etc.).

Something else that cannot be ignored (yet hardly ever gets discussed) is taxes. We'd all love them to vanish without a trace and stop being a constant drain but the cold hard truth is millions of people would suffer very badly if crypto made taxation impossible. The real problem is lack of competition to drive efficient use of tax revenue but that's another story, tax is an economy in its own right and has different properties from either a general purpose store of value or unit of exchange, properties that can be far better optimised by treating it as a separate economy than tying it to a single form of fiat currency. That's another huge subject in its own right and probably better treated as an entirely different form of crypto but interaction between it and other cryptocurrencies is an essential part of the big picture.

Indeed, which is why I talk of a ying-yang approach where there is the possibility of both reward (interest?) and inflation (inflation is a tax). The balance between reward and tax can exist because everyone will have their own needs and views. With a governance system that includes everyone, such levels and distribution can be decided. Platforms like NEM are doing both, though I find it hard to imagine dash doing so.

As a side note, it would be enormously helpful if dash could restructure to exclude percentages. Broadly speaking, cryptocurrencies are viewed as halal but, of course, there is some debate over it, particularly in the way PoW functions because imo it's a form of lottery, albeit behaving like Premium Bonds. When dash talks about 10% reward etc, that's potentially alienating a whole segment of society.

 

[stan.distortion]

Indeed, which is why I talk of a ying-yang approach where there is the possibility of both reward (interest?) and inflation (inflation is a tax). The balance between reward and tax can exist because everyone will have their own needs and views. With a governance system that includes everyone, such levels and distribution can be decided. Platforms like NEM are doing both, though I find it hard to imagine dash doing so.

As a side note, it would be enormously helpful if dash could restructure to exclude percentages. Broadly speaking, cryptocurrencies are viewed as halal but, of course, there is some debate over it, particularly in the way PoW functions because imo it's a form of lottery, albeit behaving like Premium Bonds. When dash talks about 10% reward etc, that's potentially alienating a whole segment of society.

Is percentage a problem or the reward its self? I don't know a whole lot about Islamic law but I thought zakat was also a percentage. I can see how it could be a problem with rewards though, PoW being a rough equivalent of digging gold out of the ground is a relatively even debate (imo) but taking a part of that and using it for something else could put a heavy bias against it.

 

[GrandMasterDash]

Is percentage a problem or the reward its self? I don't know a whole lot about Islamic law but I thought zakat was also a percentage. I can see how it could be a problem with rewards though, PoW being a rough equivalent of digging gold out of the ground is a relatively even debate (imo) but taking a part of that and using it for something else could put a heavy bias against it.

AFAIK it's reward based on percentage, thus it's not good to have an interest bearing account based on percentage. Applied to dash mining, for example, it would not be good to simply say 45% of the block reward. I think there are several methods around this, one of them being a fixed-return.

 

[Klossie]

With due respect: DEflation NEVER WORKS. And - presume that DASH grows in value because of attrition until (1000) are left. This WILL eventually happen if attrition is allowed to occur. Now imagine that each dash is worth $1,000,000,000 in today's dollars as a result of that. Now presume that several persons each holds 25 of them. Do you understand the logistical nightmare that scenario represents to all the holders of DASH fragments? A few bad trades at that scale would dash the entire DASH economy against the rocks of ill-will! For the sake of posterity - this should be dealt with NOW. And the easiest way to deal with it is to implement some sort of uncirculated currency recovery algorithm and making one that PAYS INTEREST IS, what I believe to be, the KILLER APP of all CRYPTO APPS. In the "real world", someone who is lost for 7 years is presumed to be legally dead and any life insurance policy pays out. Likewise - setting up a secondary payment system in DASH that regenerates uncirculated currency roughly every 7 years would roughly emulate that scenario. BitCoin's limit of 24million does not consider the effect of global disaster on the network. Currently - neither does DASH. A thinking person will contemplate things like "What if India & Pakistan nuke it out. What if 15% of all DASH holders are suddenly dead and their DASH-tokens locked down on the blockchain forever? I tell you: the lack of circulation is going to severely hurt the network. Deflation will begin to occur but it will be PAINFUL - it always is. Wouldn't it be nice that if on the day after the anniversary of the disaster that 7.4% of the locked dash became available for reissuance thru the miners? Rinse, repeat annually over the next decade (and then some)? Let common sense prevail. Good day.

I have read your initial message; I must admit I was caught a bit off-guard when I noted "My IQ punches into the genius range and I have been enthusiastic about crypto for several years already," I was caught off-guard because you made me spit out the beer I was having on this chill Friday night due to laughter. First you need to sit yourself down and understand that adding an IQ statement to any comment or statement drastically reduces your chances of being taken seriously! You also seem to have limited knowledge of the realm of finance; nevertheless I really don't care. Save yourself the time bud! Nobody enjoys a smart-ass.

Cheers; now I'll finish my newly opened beer!

 

[CURTISS COTT]

I have read your response message; -& I must admit I was caught a bit off-guard when I noted "you made me spit out the beer I was having on this chill Friday night due to laughter.". First you need to sit yourself down and understand that adding a statement about consuming alcoholic beverages while evaluating serious proposals about anything -- indicates a personality that believes that alcohol does not impair judgement. EVERY alcoholic I've ever met believes that exact flawed premise and acts on their 'belief' every time they hop into the driver's seat. And since you've already completely discredited yourself in that fundamental nexus of the need for sound judgement - I suppose no thinking person really cares about what your commentary consists of in your next act. Save yourself the time bud! Nobody enjoys a dumb-ass.
-----------------------------

I have read your initial message; I must admit I was caught a bit off-guard when I noted "My IQ punches into the genius range and I have been enthusiastic about crypto for several years already," I was caught off-guard because you made me spit out the beer I was having on this chill Friday night due to laughter. First you need to sit yourself down and understand that adding an IQ statement to any comment or statement drastically reduces your chances of being taken seriously! You also seem to have limited knowledge of the realm of finance; nevertheless I really don't care. Save yourself the time bud! Nobody enjoys a smart-ass.

Cheers; now I'll finish my newly opened beer!

--------------------------------------------------------

 

[CURTISS COTT]

As an analyst - I wanted to share what I believe to be the 1st killer wallet app. It's called: shapeshift.io and yeah ... I know you probably already know about the web based service. However - integrating shapeshift features seamlessly (say "seamlessly") into a multi-currency wallet is going to be a killer app for anyone who finds themselves moving their crypto back & forth between currencies in order to ride the wave of price changes. This is a BIG deal and congrats to Jaxx & other wallet writers who are integrating the feature.
Now, -let me make another point (coupled with an appeal and proposal) that is going to have major repercussion of the price of crypto. Ultimately, the value of crypto will NOT be driven by activity on exchanges. Exchanges are great at making bubbles. Real use generates the demands that sustain higher prices. And for that use we need to involve the global population at large. So, wallet developers take this advice: Try to make your wallet apps as BACKWARD COMPATIBLE as possible. Why? The used cell phone market is huge and many of these phones find their way to the unbanked, 3rd world. This is the precise demographic that NEEDS access to crypto. However -- these used phones are often running OS versions that are a few iterations behind the latest releases. Android 2.2 seems to be the critical cuttoff from what I have observed -- but many wallets only work with newer OS versions. As a former programmer I know it can be a major pain in the ass to make code backwardly compatible with the older stuff. But in this case, the older stuff is in the hands of the world that desperately needs crypto access. Let me propose that DASH allocate resources to compensate programmers to write backwards compatible versions of their Dash inclusive wallets. Funding this up front will lead to increased use of Dash/crypto globally and the gains will be geometric in their growth patterns as millions of people suddenly find their older smart-phones compatible with crypto. I believe it would be resources well allocated. Questions, comments, insults?