Dash has cancer, take a look at the xray...

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@GrandMasterDash , with respect, you need to get a grip.. You're creating an issue out of nothing. The amount requested for the budget was entirely reasonable and - with respect to @kot - chump change in the scheme of things.. Kot is not here to 'game' the DGBB system for his own personal gain at the expense of the Dash project. It was merely to cover genuine expenses at a networking event that was entirely within the interests of Dash for him to attend.

"Judge a man by what he does, not what he says..."

All I can say about Kot is that I see him DOING GOOD things for Dash on a daily basis. I don't see you doing good things for Dash... You seem to have a lot to say though!

The case you're referring to specifically was for something negligible like $300 in any case... Are you fucking for real...??! I own and run a modest business that has <20 staff, with turnover around $1m a year - less than the current Dash treasury budget(!) - and I wouldn't even dream of berating a member of my team for spending $300 on anything relevant to the betterment of the company, even if it turned out not to be good value... Why? Because people wouldn't want to work for me! Growing a successful organisation isn't about who can be the biggest control freak jerk. Nobody wants to work for jerks...

Get off the Team's back and let talented, dedicated individuals get on with doing what they love doing. For every $1 of mistakes they cost you, you'll see $10 of value added.

Walter
 
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I have only one question. Why is it that you fear Coinfirm? Why is it that you don't want Dash to participate with a firm that enables businesses to comply with KYC? I suppose this is a rule, Law, whatever, that you're hoping cryptocurrencies will erase. I can't say that I would mind that. But on the other hand, I would like to see Dash take over the real world. Businesses are one of our real-world users and they have needs. Coinfirm assess risks from where businesses accept money. It is not a firm that spies on the blockchain and realistically will never be able to spy on private send. I think your fear is misplaced but I don't disagree that we must keep an eye on this.

As far as Kot having a financial background in banking, this does not mean he is our enemy. On the contrary, having people with banking backgrounds gives us an Insider view on how Banks work. This should strengthen Dash.

Personally I want to take over the world's finances and how the world uses money. I think the way that Dash is approaching this is the most mature and intelligent way anyone has ever proposed to do this. If this makes you feel as though dash is simply becoming the same as the existing Financial system of the world, I would beg to differ. Crypto-currencies still have in-built rules that are not easy to change without consensus. Cryptocurrencies like Dash have set rules and cannot be manipulated by a government.

We cannot turn back time and make the marketplace simpler and we cannot purport to be intelligent enough to change all the rules and laws that the government's have laid out. We are merely creating a financial system that is more stable and less subject to manipulation by governments due to politically motivated pressures. So when some of our members like you become upset because we are finding ways to integrate with the real world, there is simply nothing that we can say to please you. You do not want to integrate with the real world.

I think the best way to put this is that most Dash community members want to throw out the dirty bath water but keep the baby. Whereas some people who are so idealistic that they cannot see that their vision if followed would create catastrophe either for the world or for the project would throw out the baby with the bathwater.
 
One more thing I would like to add is that I follow the economist / philosopher Friedrich Hayek. This man was absolutely brilliant. And if you read his thesis on basically currency competition, you will see that true health for currency is competition which is what Dash Bitcoin and any other surviving coin of the future provides. These are international currencies which government-issued Fiat will not be able to ignore and will not be able to ban from a society. This means that even Fiat if it should survive will have to compete against cryptocurrencies and become better than what they are today in order to survive. Do not quote, please, Gresham's law, which says that bad money will drive out good because this is only true when bad money can monopolize. And as you see above, governments cannot enforce the use of their Fiat when cryptocurrency is available.
 
TanteStefana said:
It is not a firm that spies on the blockchain
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I beg to differ, this firm absolutely does spy on the blockchain. That is the very reason we aspire for fungibility, so that some coins are not worth less than other just because of where they've been.
But otherwise I agree with you. Hayek FTW

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lynx said:
I beg to differ, this firm absolutely does spy on the blockchain. That is the very reason we aspire for fungibility, so that some coins are not worth less than other just because of where they've been.
But otherwise I agree with you. Hayek FTW

coinfirm-png.3013
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I guess what I meant was that they can't spy on you on the blockchain if private send is generally used. Evan once had the vision where private send would be used on a basic level all the time. I do hope that that will come to pass someday. And I want that to come to pass because of fungibility and if everyone is using it even for just one mix it will be entirely impossible to tell where coins came from or where they're going.. of course I'm talking about when we have mass adoption and we have millions of transactions an hour. At that point I don't see why anyone would be to mix where the ones between receiving and sending.
 
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TanteStefana said:
I guess what I meant was that they can't spy on you on the blockchain if private send is generally used.
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Well, just because they can't. That's why I oppose them on principle.

PS: But I'm curious about what they would say about an anonymized dash transaction,
 
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Coinfirm, as I understand it, doesn't view the use of Private send in itself as a negative thing. I don't know all their metrics, but basically, the company puts a risk analysis on each transaction a firm accepts. There is always a risk, including with cash vs checks vs whatever, and that's what Coinfirm provides, a quick analysis of KYC transactions that allow such firms to accept Dash. Without this, these firms couldn't accept Dash. Personally, I think the main problem comes with incoming transactions over the prescribed limit, such as $10,000 or more in the USA. Who transacts at such a high level? Well, used car sales, jewelry, many things...

That's what Coinfirm is trying to do, provide a service so that these companies can accept Dash as a payment where they otherwise couldn't. At smaller "cash/Dash" amounts, there is no need for such a service. KYC doesn't even come into play.
 
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@TanteStefana
No, I can't accept this. If this would mean firms can't accept an anonymised Dash payment just because it is a large payment, we are doing it wrong.

TanteStefana said:
There is always a risk, including with cash vs checks vs whatever, and that's what Coinfirm provides, a quick analysis of KYC transactions that allow such firms to accept Dash. Without this, these firms couldn't accept Dash.
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No, there is no risk when accepting instantsend payments over the dash network. If there was a risk, you would than have to accept that there is no fungibility in the dash network. This is bullshit.
 
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Who says they can't accept anonymized large payments? Firms can accept whatever they want. They won't accept any Dash without covering their asses though if there were no way to quantify risk. Coinfirm does this with Bitcoin as well. Private Send is only one variable in their analysis! It's not considered bad in and of itself. But again, if you feel somehow a crypto currency can not only take over the world but also rebuild it from the ground up, then awesome. I think that's too narrow in scope and destined to fail. We have to do everything fiat can do only better. When that happens, there will be big pressure to reduce the size of government and it will wipe out a lot of corruption naturally. Otherwise, we simply fail at bettering the world.
 
TanteStefana said:
Who says they can't accept anonymized large payments? Firms can accept whatever they want. They won't accept any Dash without covering their asses though if there were no way to quantify risk. Coinfirm does this with Bitcoin as well. Private Send is only one variable in their analysis! It's not considered bad in and of itself. But again, if you feel somehow a crypto currency can not only take over the world but also rebuild it from the ground up, then awesome. I think that's too narrow in scope and destined to fail. We have to do everything fiat can do only better. When that happens, there will be big pressure to reduce the size of government and it will wipe out a lot of corruption naturally. Otherwise, we simply fail at bettering the world.
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We already do everything fiat aims to do and better (in the eyes of the user). Maybe in the eyes of the government we don't.
Okay, then, I challenge you. Show me a Dash anonymized transaction in the coinfirm explorer that has a clean rating. If it doesn't exist, it means they are useless, and if it does, well, it means they are useless too.
 
There is always risk in accepting money of any sort. Look, if you find this to be unacceptable, that's fine. I don't. I see it as a very good service that will help Dash become more acceptable to business. Neither of us can ultimately have "our way", because businesses will do what they do. I know we have partnered up with Coinfirm, and that's what you ultimately don't like. I'm sorry this did not go the way you would have liked it to go, but for the majority of voters, it appears to be a good move. Certainly, it's not the end of the world, or like cancer. And it's not going to be the last partnership either, unless you can get a whole lot more MNs to vote your way?
 
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My absence from this conversation should be noted.

DASH has much bigger problems in it's ranks than this. Even if we assume it to be true; I don't care.
 
Walter said:
@GrandMasterDash , with respect, you need to get a grip.. You're creating an issue out of nothing. The amount requested for the budget was entirely reasonable and - with respect to @kot - chump change in the scheme of things.. Kot is not here to 'game' the DGBB system for his own personal gain at the expense of the Dash project. It was merely to cover genuine expenses at a networking event that was entirely within the interests of Dash for him to attend.

"Judge a man by what he does, not what he says..."

All I can say about Kot is that I see him DOING GOOD things for Dash on a daily basis. I don't see you doing good things for Dash... You seem to have a lot to say though!

The case you're referring to specifically was for something negligible like $300 in any case... Are you fucking for real...??! I own and run a modest business that has <20 staff, with turnover around $1m a year - less than the current Dash treasury budget(!) - and I wouldn't even dream of berating a member of my team for spending $300 on anything relevant to the betterment of the company, even if it turned out not to be good value... Why? Because people wouldn't want to work for me! Growing a successful organisation isn't about who can be the biggest control freak jerk. Nobody wants to work for jerks...

Get off the Team's back and let talented, dedicated individuals get on with doing what they love doing. For every $1 of mistakes they cost you, you'll see $10 of value added.

Walter
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Yeah, and fuck you too. You rant on about money when I already made it clear it wasn't about money. The only person talking about money is you, no one else. The issue is regarding important information being withheld, regarding a matter that is sensitive to a lot of people; namely AML/KYC. The fact that you personally agree with AML/KYC is the only reason you feel so compelled to defend him, but still you try to distract and talk about money?

And yes, he did know about Coinfirm beforehand because you and him have conveniently left out the meetup page which clearly shows "Warsaw block" and the relevant links to Coinfirm.. not a polish site that most people can't read:
https://www.meetup.com/Warsaw-Block-Monthly-Blockchain-Bitcoin-and-Startup-event/
 
TanteStefana said:
I have only one question. Why is it that you fear Coinfirm?
Click to expand...

It is true that parasites like Coinfirm will always exist but I see no reason why dash must give them time or money to do so.

One of the key pillars of crypto is permissionless transactions, it's one of the biggest reasons we all ended up here, right now, in the cryptosphere. And thus fungibility is essential. Crypto gives us the opportunity to build the alternative economy that sidesteps all the shit that's happening in the fiat world... that's just not possible when you want to have fiat's babies.

There are a lot of people here that seem to think money is business when it's not. Money for money's sake is exactly why people get screwed by banks and money transmitters; ATM charges, admin charges, can do this, can't do that.. money for money's sake. That's the path dash is on. Evan has said it himself, Paypal 2.0.. well fuck that, might as well just use Paypal, they have laws and licenses to abide by too ("compliance"). So yeah, go ahead and justify why dash should be Paypal because surely it will have to abide by the same rules.
 
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GrandMasterDash said:
Yeah, and fuck you too. You rant on about money when I already made it clear it wasn't about money. The only person talking about money is you, no one else. The issue is regarding important information being withheld, regarding a matter that is sensitive to a lot of people; namely AML/KYC. The fact that you personally agree with AML/KYC is the only reason you feel so compelled to defend him, but still you try to distract and talk about money?

And yes, he did know about Coinfirm beforehand because you and him have conveniently left out the meetup page which clearly shows "Warsaw block" and the relevant links to Coinfirm.. not a polish site that most people can't read:
https://www.meetup.com/Warsaw-Block-Monthly-Blockchain-Bitcoin-and-Startup-event/
Click to expand...


Oh right, so it's about AML/KYC and witholding info? Well that's even more fucking ridiculous then...
 
TanteStefana said:
I'm sorry this did not go the way you would have liked it to go, but for the majority of voters, it appears to be a good move. Certainly, it's not the end of the world, or like cancer. And it's not going to be the last partnership either, unless you can get a whole lot more MNs to vote your way?
Click to expand...
Ok, but when did we vote on this issue? We voted for a dash representative to attend a conference, that's all. We were never asked if we'd like a partnership with Coinfirm.
 
It's clear there's lots of passion here which I imagine we can all agree is a good thing, but when people start swearing at each other effective communication usually stops. I'd say that happens equally where we question others moral sets and broader character so I'm dismayed to see how rapidly that has happened in certain quarters here.

Kot explained what he knew and when, and you either take him at his word or you do not.

Things have since meandered off into a broader discussion of the merits / evils of Coinfirm so, whilst I don't think "this thread ... and OP are a f*cking joke" is any more helpful a sentiment than "fuck you too", I would agree with Stealth923 that this thread isn't really any longer productive, were it ever so.
 
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