I think that's a fair assumption... A rational actor is completely motivated by financial gain/reward, in the context of investment. IF you want to destroy dash at 'all costs' that makes you irrational and, frankly, foolish.
Walter
Bargain: Who wants 6500 dash?
- Thread starter demo
- Start date
I think that's a fair assumption... A rational actor is completely motivated by financial gain/reward, in the context of investment. IF you want to destroy dash at 'all costs' that makes you irrational and, frankly, foolish.
Walter
I will certainly concede the point that if some very deep pockets wanted to destroy Dash at any cost, they probably could. However, doing so would require that they buy a ridiculous number of masternodes, driving the price of Dash sky-high and making it far more expensive than you might think. As Walter says, no economically-driven actor would do it.
And it is called reality. Reality doesn't care for you like or don't like, your perceptions are purely your own.
You're just as delusional as Walter. Again you assume no one person - or small collective - has not got 10% of all MNs. Just show us the evidence.
You're looking for problems where they don't exist. If the opportunity to execute the above was really that attractive then it would happen (if it was possible at all). we'll see what happens at the end of the month...!
Walter
Again, no one is able to prove or disprove.. but there are two very important inescapable facts that we do know:
1. An instamine took place, and
2. 10% net votes is apparently the magic number to win proposals
Granted, for a long time I myself had accepted (by way of common sense), Evan's account of the instamine. However, even if we accept Evan's word at face value, we are still unable to prove or disprove who owns what.
Consider this:
1. Given the floor for winning a proposal is just 10% net, and
2. Given MNO participation is typically very low, and
3. Given a lot of cheap coins may have contributed to voting (by way of the instamine)...
...I contend it's not infeasible or so far-fetched that the grants system is being rigged.
There's little point anyone talking about the cost of attaining majority when we know the instamine took place i.e. a lot of cheap coins / votes went somewhere.. where? - no one can say for certain, we can only guess.
Of course, it would be terribly easy to fix this if dash switched to a higher threshold and if some kind of participation was enforced. And for anyone that says forced participation is not fair or workable, I say take a look at how payment enforcement is currently switched off! And guess what, not switched off through consensus of MNs but centrally from just one person (or small group of people).
Well that's a post chock full of supposition if ever I read one, if you're going to challenge statements use math/logic and facts as the basis of your argument. So basically, if we take you argument back to it's logical basis we shouldn't trust anything/anyone and what we perceive is reality may just be a fictional construct in our heads..? Great work pal.
consider this:
1. Mathmatically speaking - achieving a 10% net swing in any form of voting is very difficult to achieve through manipulation. If >10% net of a voting population vote for or against something then it's generally accepted as the consensus.
2. MNO participation is in line with that of general voting percentages in most western democracies. Some types of vote achieve higher participation rates than in others depending on how important the MNO operators perceive the vote to be to them. For example, I know UK residents that wouldn't vote in EU parliament elections but would vote in General Elections and voted in our EU membership referendum. So when you put your statement into context against other 'Governance models' I think Dash is doing fine and participation rates are within norms of what you would expect to see in any governance model.
3. A lot of cheap coins have been traded and distributed to the point where your argument around concentration of ownership of Dash isn't a statistically material issue. For sure there are likely to be a few 100,000+ holders of Dash but that's still not a statistically significant enough number of coins (voting rights) to determine and rig the system outright. https://chainz.cryptoid.info/dash/#!wallets
Bottom line - your supposition that the grants system is being rigged doesn't really hold water. Demonstrate to me that the system is being rigged and I'll believe you. When the facts change I change my mind. You have yet to present me with any facts/figures that demonstrably prove that the system is being rigged... Surely if it was, it wouldn't be hard to prove??
Walter
consider this:
1. Mathmatically speaking - achieving a 10% net swing in any form of voting is very difficult to achieve through manipulation. If >10% net of a voting population vote for or against something then it's generally accepted as the consensus.
2. MNO participation is in line with that of general voting percentages in most western democracies. Some types of vote achieve higher participation rates than in others depending on how important the MNO operators perceive the vote to be to them. For example, I know UK residents that wouldn't vote in EU parliament elections but would vote in General Elections and voted in our EU membership referendum. So when you put your statement into context against other 'Governance models' I think Dash is doing fine and participation rates are within norms of what you would expect to see in any governance model.
3. A lot of cheap coins have been traded and distributed to the point where your argument around concentration of ownership of Dash isn't a statistically material issue. For sure there are likely to be a few 100,000+ holders of Dash but that's still not a statistically significant enough number of coins (voting rights) to determine and rig the system outright. https://chainz.cryptoid.info/dash/#!wallets
Bottom line - your supposition that the grants system is being rigged doesn't really hold water. Demonstrate to me that the system is being rigged and I'll believe you. When the facts change I change my mind. You have yet to present me with any facts/figures that demonstrably prove that the system is being rigged... Surely if it was, it wouldn't be hard to prove??
Walter
I won't bother you with the detail because most people will see past your words.
Suddenly you'd like to compare dash's consensus with "western democracies", when the simple fact is, crypto makes it's own rules, sets it's own destiny. If we choose to have 20% net votes, or to enforce minimum participation based on X, Y, Z criteria, why we can't do that? I mean, if you want to go all political and comparative on this, let's talk about publicly accountable politicians then, let's have all MNOs identifiable... or does that part not suit your argument now? Your arguments are remarkably inconsistent.
And you talk about "math" and "statistics" like it means something. Well statistics say you will probably never win the lottery yet people play, and the only people that win are the people that participate. Statistics won't prove or disprove anything when it comes to who owns what. What next, you're going to tell us that statistics can beat coin mixing?
You speak nothing but words. All I continue to ask is, give us the evidence, show us who owns what. Like I've already said, no statistics are going to account for coin mixing... no one can deny the instamine (Evan admits it took place), and no one has explained why 10% is the magic number for this magical democracy you are so proud to talk of.
Pathetic really. I won't bother answering to your garbage. Imo, if you're not a part of the fix, you're certainly supporting it.
demo
Well-known member
This thread is also topical for this month's budget:
https://www.dashninja.pl/governance.html
Next super-block will be 648024 on 5/4/2017, 3:24:31 π.μ. (1 week 6 days 4 hours 35 minutes 5 seconds) and will provide 6,651.85 DASH for budgets. 5,618.85 DASH unallocated in next super-block.
5,618.85 DASH = (561885 $
) are waiting for the smart MNO's to get them the last minute!!!!
Get organized, create a secret and dedicated MNO clan, post a decent-like proposal which the press will not be able to distinguish that it is actually a scam (after all you are an MNO and you dont want to hurt Dash's price, do you?), then vote-attack the budget system the correct time, and maybe you will be rich!
and of course...
https://www.dashninja.pl/governance.html
Next super-block will be 648024 on 5/4/2017, 3:24:31 π.μ. (1 week 6 days 4 hours 35 minutes 5 seconds) and will provide 6,651.85 DASH for budgets. 5,618.85 DASH unallocated in next super-block.
5,618.85 DASH = (561885 $
) are waiting for the smart MNO's to get them the last minute!!!! Get organized, create a secret and dedicated MNO clan, post a decent-like proposal which the press will not be able to distinguish that it is actually a scam (after all you are an MNO and you dont want to hurt Dash's price, do you?), then vote-attack the budget system the correct time, and maybe you will be rich!
and of course...
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roomservice
New member
Can't Dash be somehow improved in order to prevent such an exploit?
My first thought, just add this rule:
- Proposals have to be at least x (enter magic number here) days old in order to be included into next super-block
Would that work out or any negative side-effects?
My first thought, just add this rule:
- Proposals have to be at least x (enter magic number here) days old in order to be included into next super-block
Would that work out or any negative side-effects?
Acedian
Active member
There is, it is 3 days.
This is just a big troll thread, isn't it?
demo
Well-known member
It is not 4 days. It is 3 days.
So you have to post a decent-like proposal 3 days before. A well written and decent-look-like proposal is a prerequisite in order to confuse both the unsuspecting MNOs and the journalists (who may discover the scam, write articles in the press and cause Dash's price fall which is smth you do not want to happen). If you manage to cast the 400 votes package the last moment , then you will get the money.
You may also create multiple small-price decent-like scam proposals, in order to cause more confusion to the unsuspecting MNO (who are not members of the secret clan) and to the journalists. The important thing is not to give tο the rest masternodes the time to think, to understand whats really happening to the proposal, and to react by casting the negative votes.
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demo
Well-known member
This is not the solution.
Whatever this x magic number may be, this means that for x days there is a vote war! And this is not something desirable, you should not expect for the masternodes to live in a sentry box for x days . The solution is reversible transactions as a result of a political decision (vote).
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there are
proposals have to be x days old to be considered
+ 10 % + of votes (i believe) have to be in to be considered also
TroyDASH
Well-known member
On a related note, perhaps one thing that could be mitigated. We saw recently in the DDOS attack that it's possible to intentionally knock some masternodes off the queue. Somebody could attempt to target only the masternodes that are voting a certain way on a proposal, in hopes of taking enough of them out just before the finalization procedure to influence the outcome. So what I would like to see is maybe a buffer period, where for example, a new masternode must wait 4 days before it can have its votes counted, and a masternode that has fallen off the queue does not lose its vote until 4 days after it was last active. although I figure such an implementation might be difficult to integrate with existing system...
demo
Well-known member
This is also possible to happen. 500000 $ are a lot of money and gives a lot of incentives for some MNO's to DDOS some other MNO's. I think it's very tiring every last three days of the month everybody to be stand-by waiting for DDOS attacks or any other cheat that may occur.
A decentralized solution for this problem is to implement reversible budget transactions upon community vote. No permanet finilization will occur. The dash may go to the payement address after the budget finilization, but if the community decides-votes otherwise within a reasonable time period (six months?), the dash will be burned.
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demo
Well-known member
just a reminder: https://www.dashninja.pl/governance.html
Global Statistics
There are 40 valid budgets proposal of which 26 are funded (total funded payment: 3,221.85 DASH).
Next super-block will be 648024 on 5/4/2017, 4:39:18 π.μ. (1 week 11 hours 2 minutes) and will provide 6,651.85 DASH for budgets.
3,430 DASH = 297,106 USD unallocated in next super-block.
Global Statistics
There are 40 valid budgets proposal of which 26 are funded (total funded payment: 3,221.85 DASH).
Next super-block will be 648024 on 5/4/2017, 4:39:18 π.μ. (1 week 11 hours 2 minutes) and will provide 6,651.85 DASH for budgets.
3,430 DASH = 297,106 USD unallocated in next super-block.
demo
Well-known member
just a reminder:
http://dashvotetracker.com
The total number of Masternodes is 4423.
The current USD value of Dash is $75.31.
Next budget payments will occur in 14 days.
Voting deadline will occur in 12 days.
Total Current Allocated Budget: 494.00 DASH ($37,203.14).
Total Available Budget: 6,651.85 DASH ($500,950.81).
(2017-05-05 09:36:46, block 664640)
12 days left, and only 494 DASH allocated. The stupids and the spies have almost destroyed the dash governance system.
http://dashvotetracker.com
The total number of Masternodes is 4423.
The current USD value of Dash is $75.31.
Next budget payments will occur in 14 days.
Voting deadline will occur in 12 days.
Total Current Allocated Budget: 494.00 DASH ($37,203.14).
Total Available Budget: 6,651.85 DASH ($500,950.81).
(2017-05-05 09:36:46, block 664640)
12 days left, and only 494 DASH allocated. The stupids and the spies have almost destroyed the dash governance system.
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Biltong
Active member
A Troll aims to boost his own ego; abuse others; disrupt people from benefitting the community by long winded nonsense arguments.
Arguing with a troll feeds his ego; wastes your and the communities time by creating empty threads.
How to recognize a troll? (for noobs) Click on his picture/messages – random sample of messages.
If 9 out of 10 are negative/disruptive/nonsense/abusive – he is a Troll.
What to do? If you don't have much time: Click ‘Ignore’ on his profile or If you want to defend the community: Click the troll meme for each and every post he makes. After a certain number of ‘troll’ memes his message is made invisible. As not seen above
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demo
Well-known member
A Troll aims to boost his own ego; abuse others; disrupt people from benefitting the community by long winded nonsense arguments.
Arguing with a troll feeds his ego; wastes your and the communities time by creating empty threads.
How to recognize a troll? (for noobs) Click on his picture/messages – random sample of messages.
If 9 out of 10 are negative/disruptive/nonsense/abusive – he is a Troll.
What to do? If you don't have much time: Click ‘Ignore’ on his profile or If you want to defend the community: Click the troll meme for each and every post he makes. After a certain number of ‘troll’ memes his message is made invisible. As not seen above
How to expose the spies's structured methodology, when they massively troll rate a person who is against their goals.
Implement (or ask the forum owners to implement) this
https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/ratings-demo-received.12739/
Use statistics in order to protect the free speech and in order to expose the spies who are voting (masively and organized) against persons, or even worst against ideas.
In my case, for example, there is always one/two persons who constantly (and masively) troll rate me. They suddently and unexpectedly disappear, and then another one or two appear and do the same job (and I could easily prove this if the rating statistics were publicaly available, but they arent and I let you guess the reason...). I think those one/two persons are the same spies, the same individuals, who change forum nicknames.
The same spies tremble with fear the proof of individuality because it will reveal their structured methodology.
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