R
RGXDK
Guest
And the evidence for that is...?
A Potential Goldmine: Making The #FirstDashWallet Campaign Permanent
- Thread starter TaoOfSatoshi
- Start date
And the evidence for that is...?
R
RGXDK
Guest
Agreed but no charity with other people's money
I would like to share my thoughts. Please correct me if I am wrong.
1. Only legitimate new users get their dash.
2. They don't "shapeshift" it to something else, because dash is not accepted in their area.
(I imagine that 30$ in Uber, can be spend only for Uber services, right?)
Campaigns like that are generally good idea, but in our case it should be strictly time limited ,or periodical only.
IMO, it is only a matter of time, for hired people from China or India, to drain, even our full budget, in few hours. (Have you heard of "farms" of people solving massive amounts of captcha for money?)
Please ask @solarguy , he seems to have good critical thinking (I.e. in this thread https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/dash-stock-split.9611/page-3#post-129602)
In short: This campaign now is better than doing nothing, but without proper security measures it may become worse than doing nothing.
(It's better to not create budget founds, than to waste them.)
Edit: 1. Giftaways like these could be continued, but in a face to face manner, best on dash related events (i.e. symposiums, lectures, promotional/marketing events, sponsored by us sport events?) Doing it online, for a longer time period, is risky. (But maybe I am not aware of precautions taken by organizers.)
2. Isn't promoting a Jaxx wallet risky ass well, at the moment?
https://vxlabs.com/2017/06/10/extracting-the-jaxx-12-word-wallet-backup-phrase/
3. Anyway, don't let these comments bring you down, and keep up a good work, like you used to, Amanda
I agree, with assumptions that:
1. Only legitimate new users get their dash.
2. They don't "shapeshift" it to something else, because dash is not accepted in their area.
(I imagine that 30$ in Uber, can be spend only for Uber services, right?)
Campaigns like that are generally good idea, but in our case it should be strictly time limited ,or periodical only.
IMO, it is only a matter of time, for hired people from China or India, to drain, even our full budget, in few hours. (Have you heard of "farms" of people solving massive amounts of captcha for money?)
Please ask @solarguy , he seems to have good critical thinking (I.e. in this thread https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/dash-stock-split.9611/page-3#post-129602)
In short: This campaign now is better than doing nothing, but without proper security measures it may become worse than doing nothing.
(It's better to not create budget founds, than to waste them.)
Edit: 1. Giftaways like these could be continued, but in a face to face manner, best on dash related events (i.e. symposiums, lectures, promotional/marketing events, sponsored by us sport events?) Doing it online, for a longer time period, is risky. (But maybe I am not aware of precautions taken by organizers.)
2. Isn't promoting a Jaxx wallet risky ass well, at the moment?
https://vxlabs.com/2017/06/10/extracting-the-jaxx-12-word-wallet-backup-phrase/
3. Anyway, don't let these comments bring you down, and keep up a good work, like you used to, Amanda
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I would vote for continuing this campaign. But I agree with other that this alone is not nearly good enough. I would prefer the Dash Core Team would increase their business development team.
dashdisciple
Active member
Is the #FirstDashWallet an unbelievable success? Yes, absolutely. It's incredible. People from all over crypto are taking notice. Any day now, it has the potential to hop into the mainstream media sphere.
Should it continue into the future, using surplus funds that aren't already being absorbed for more targetted use? Yes, if the campaign evolved. (continent by continent rule variants, different tasks, etc.)
For the last week, my team and I have been working with Pete and Amanda in the goal of minimizing their manual labor inputs required. We've been able to program and deliver them a couple different tools to pull and organize data, and then make batch payments. On top of this, though, a full manual fraud review is still required. My guess is that Amanda and Pete have each been working 18 hour days since the campaign begun, even with these tools.
In terms of feasibility alone, more programs and tools must be developed, and labor aside from Pete's and Amanda's would need to be input for scalability and enhanced fraud review. In an ideal world, Amanda's time could be totally freed up for press interviews discussing the promotion, not implementing it.
We've run blockchain analysis on several large samples of the payment addresses to see what's going on. All of the forementioned activities are occurring: some are leaving it on their wallet, some are adding it to larger wallets, some are sharing it with friends, some are passing it around in all types of ways, some are aggregating and selling it off or trading it. Similar to real money, people are using it for all different types of things.
Aside from simply giving money away, though, what Dash/Amanda are really doing is paying people to do things from across the world. Amanda is paying two people to find a friend, make a sign, download an app, get a payment address, make a post to twitter. For $10 a person, they are completing this task. What else could these people be paid to do? Has there been a time before in history where a person sitting at a computer on one side of the world could hire thousands of other people to do a task and have them paid without banks? I'd love for this discussion to evolve into what else these people could be paid to do in a mutually beneficial way.
Overall, though, having $1,000,000 in unspent budget in a startup like Dash is unacceptable. It's a squandered opportunity.
Many of us keep waiting for Core to take this gigantic budget, invest every dollar (that's not going into R&D) right into productive marketing, such as Google, Bing, Reddit pay-per-click ads. Until the day that Core realizes that this surplus money needs to be reinvested into aggressive outreach and marketing to new investors, I think Tao's vision of surplus reinvestment into an evolving #FirstDashWallet campaign is brilliant, and we support it.
Should it continue into the future, using surplus funds that aren't already being absorbed for more targetted use? Yes, if the campaign evolved. (continent by continent rule variants, different tasks, etc.)
For the last week, my team and I have been working with Pete and Amanda in the goal of minimizing their manual labor inputs required. We've been able to program and deliver them a couple different tools to pull and organize data, and then make batch payments. On top of this, though, a full manual fraud review is still required. My guess is that Amanda and Pete have each been working 18 hour days since the campaign begun, even with these tools.
In terms of feasibility alone, more programs and tools must be developed, and labor aside from Pete's and Amanda's would need to be input for scalability and enhanced fraud review. In an ideal world, Amanda's time could be totally freed up for press interviews discussing the promotion, not implementing it.
We've run blockchain analysis on several large samples of the payment addresses to see what's going on. All of the forementioned activities are occurring: some are leaving it on their wallet, some are adding it to larger wallets, some are sharing it with friends, some are passing it around in all types of ways, some are aggregating and selling it off or trading it. Similar to real money, people are using it for all different types of things.
Aside from simply giving money away, though, what Dash/Amanda are really doing is paying people to do things from across the world. Amanda is paying two people to find a friend, make a sign, download an app, get a payment address, make a post to twitter. For $10 a person, they are completing this task. What else could these people be paid to do? Has there been a time before in history where a person sitting at a computer on one side of the world could hire thousands of other people to do a task and have them paid without banks? I'd love for this discussion to evolve into what else these people could be paid to do in a mutually beneficial way.
Overall, though, having $1,000,000 in unspent budget in a startup like Dash is unacceptable. It's a squandered opportunity.
Many of us keep waiting for Core to take this gigantic budget, invest every dollar (that's not going into R&D) right into productive marketing, such as Google, Bing, Reddit pay-per-click ads. Until the day that Core realizes that this surplus money needs to be reinvested into aggressive outreach and marketing to new investors, I think Tao's vision of surplus reinvestment into an evolving #FirstDashWallet campaign is brilliant, and we support it.
AndyDark
Well-known member
"Until the day that Core realizes that this surplus money needs to be reinvested into aggressive outreach and marketing to new investors"
Please see: https://www.forbes.com/sites/nathan...startup-death-premature-scaling/#317fc6e71fc9
Core's strategy is based on the recognition that Dash (and crypto in general) is not ready for the mass market yet due to lack of access, usibility and complexity. To solve this we are working on Evolution, which you can read about in many places, and progress on that is (we feel) good and on schedule.
Mass/agressive marketting before we have a mainstream product is something certain new people have been pushing agressively, and is something that is potentially very damanging to Dash before it can deliver the kind of value those users are looking for, and people are openly talking about how this can raise the price, i.e. driven by greed, and desire to increase the value of their Dash before we have a mainstream product and to new users who don't necessarily understand what they are taking on and potentially get burned if this kind of agressive marketing causes bubbles / large price rises, which again is damanging to our long term strategy and desire to actually benefit a much larger base of users in the mainstream than crypto is currently capable of doing.
So just saying that Core 'doesn't realize' - actually please consider if you realize what our strategy is or understand basics of marketing, startups and product launch - building a mainstream-ready product correctly, scalably, steadily and not trying to run before we can walk is how we succeed. Trying to just get Dash into the hands of the highest number of users possible right now and raising the price is certainly not why we are here.
If you don't agree with the Core strategy, please use the governance system to effect that or invest in a project that can provide the pump you're looking for with marketing and hype, here we are working on long term value, earned through innovation to solve the current crypto problems and not just push things onto noobs with a product that's not ready.
Thanks
Andy
Dash Core Team CTO
Rod Ambrissi
Member
I think also expanding this campaign in different languages will be a huge success but not with subtitles but someone talking either Spanish for the Latin America markets or Portuguese from Brazil and other Asian languages as well.
dashdisciple
Active member
Andy, thanks a lot for the thoughtful response.
I read through the article you provided, and it sounds like the main pitfall in early scaling is that startups burn through funds they'll need for later. In the case of Dash, it works in reverse, for the most part. Each month, the funds either get used or burnt, and renewed the next month. What I'm suggesting is that all funds be reinvested towards gaining more investors now, so that when we need a larger marketing budget for Evolution in the future, we've planned ahead. New investment now will be used to market Evolution later.
I agree that getting people in at the user level will not be nearly as valuable as gaining new investors at this moment.
There is some difference of opinion here, but I think ourselves and many MNOs would prefer to continue to support Core completely and entirely instead of creating political parties over this issue. If this issue isn't addressed, it's a guarantee that it will become a governance issue and be brought to more and more contentious votes, but we'd prefer that it never got to that level.
Somebody should be picking up this leftover $1M per month and putting it to efficient use. A pump or hype is not what we are after, but we are interested in making sure that Dash wins its fair share of the new investment money that is flowing into crypto right now. We will need it for Dash's many battles to come.
If Core is not interested in utilizing more than its R&D portion of the budget, I think Dash would benefit by, at least, receiving some guidance as to what other large Dash teams could be doing to put that money to use. We could all benefit from a coordinated strategy which puts Dash's ample treasury to use. Nobody wants to step on Core's toes if there is a better plan for this money.
There is clearly a cap on how much can be thrown at programming, but that doesn't mean there aren't other ways to utilize nearly $1M/mo in surplus funds that would otherwise just be burnt each month. If Core has no ideas of how that money can be spent effectively, though, that is a different and bigger problem.
Thanks again for taking this issue seriously and responding. We are very grateful for your work and focus with R&D.
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I'm very thankful for @amanda_b_johnson to step up with the #firstdashwallet initiative because I can imagine how hard this can be to manually filter all these requests for "free money" and it's very interesting to test the idea even though it might be too early as @AndyDark already mentioned. With that being said I'm pretty sure that an open-ended proposal to continue the campaign forever without any estimates or limits is the wrong way. Imo we shouldn't throw money to the wind even if otherwise they are going to be burnt not going to be created - this encourages ill kind of behavior which can be damaging in the long term. This one https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/proposal-should-we-continue-the-maxed-out-campaigns.15311/ was already worrying a bit but at least it provided some kind of info regarding current status and claimed the increased rate of demand (still no limits though...).
I think we should check the results of current campaign first after some time i.e. How many of them really became Dash users in any sense? How many of them just converted Dash to btc/$/whatever and just got their "free money" from us? (How can we verify this btw?) There are many countries in the world where $100 is a huge amount of money, so I imagine it could be a non-neglible %. And then - how many new users we gained through #firstdashwallet are still using Dash after one month? After two months? Basically, the question is - is there any (expected) long term effect at all or is it just some short term PR and newly created money are mostly wasted?
I think we should check the results of current campaign first after some time i.e. How many of them really became Dash users in any sense? How many of them just converted Dash to btc/$/whatever and just got their "free money" from us? (How can we verify this btw?) There are many countries in the world where $100 is a huge amount of money, so I imagine it could be a non-neglible %. And then - how many new users we gained through #firstdashwallet are still using Dash after one month? After two months? Basically, the question is - is there any (expected) long term effect at all or is it just some short term PR and newly created money are mostly wasted?
I agree it's been a successful campaign, however, let's not be lazy and simply repeating things. When you consider all the great innovators and creative minds; they didn't just have one-hit-wonders, they re-imagined and re-invented themselves; Michael Jackson, Madonna, Steve Jobs... every single one of them came back with something fresh and that's what differentiated them, made them superstars.
So let's just give Amanda the space to innovate and progress.
But also, let's keep in mind that Apple could never be the same without Jobs. Amanda is equally a potential liability because in many ways she is the face of dash. If Amanda is not here tomorrow, how would dash be perceived? - how would it affect the price of dash? And with that in mind, I think it would be money better spent if we could find more Amanda's. Let's get some diversity and let's keep trying new things.
So let's just give Amanda the space to innovate and progress.
But also, let's keep in mind that Apple could never be the same without Jobs. Amanda is equally a potential liability because in many ways she is the face of dash. If Amanda is not here tomorrow, how would dash be perceived? - how would it affect the price of dash? And with that in mind, I think it would be money better spent if we could find more Amanda's. Let's get some diversity and let's keep trying new things.
AndyDark
Well-known member
"What I'm suggesting is that all funds be reinvested towards gaining more investors now, so that when we need a larger marketing budget for Evolution in the future, we've planned ahead."
That's really not what you were saying at all. What you said was:
"Many of us keep waiting for Core to take this gigantic budget, invest every dollar (that's not going into R&D) right into productive marketing, such as Google, Bing, Reddit pay-per-click ads. Until the day that Core realizes that this surplus money needs to be reinvested into aggressive outreach and marketing to new investors, I think Tao's vision of surplus reinvestment into an evolving #FirstDashWallet campaign is brilliant, and we support it."
I.e. marketing now, not saving the funds for Evolution, and your contacting the Core team on seperate channels to do this also - my point again - heavily marketing a product for mass market before Evolution is just going to hurt our ability to market something people can actually use in future. Second, the Core Team should not be responsible for marketting - we have zero marketing activities because our job is producing secure, scalable open-source software, this role needs to be protected and not involved in trying to draw noob users just to invest when we haven't released our main product yet.
"We've run blockchain analysis on several large samples of the payment addresses to see what's going on."
Care to share that? How did you know people are giving Dash to friends? That would be interesting analysis.
BTW who are you exactly? New to Dash? Masternode owner? You seem to be connecting with quite a few people and influencing various strategies, pushing agressive marketing strategy, emailing the core team trying to get us to do same? Care to share some info?
@dashdisciple are you saying that Amanda has given you the raw data for analysis? Where was the data posted? @amanda_b_johnson how can I get a pre-release copy of your results?
AndyDark
Well-known member
"So let's just give Amanda the space to innovate and progress."
this... Amanda is one of the great innovators in Dash, using blockchain funding to make potential users aware of Dash through education and honest assesment of the value and technology from a real-world user perspective so users can decide for themselves, with great original content. That's an instruction on decentralized governance to everyone in this space how this technology can grow with the right incentives model and decentralization. It's up to Amanda what Amanda does and like all innovators in Dash we should support and let them try things and see what works and what helps us grow into a mainstream currency.
dashdisciple
Active member
Andy, thanks again for addressing this issue.
I've been involved for the better part of 2017 as a Dash investor having also brought in other substantial Dash investors. For the last couple months, we've been more actively involved in Dash. We all have experience in running fiat businesses. In our current involvement, we're tending to our investments, which is something you should be prepared to see more and more of as the market cap of Dash rises. Dash is getting a different caliber of investor now, and you'll see that they demand more professional management. If these investors are not satisfied by seeing an increasing level of professionalism in management and deployment of resources, I fully expect that no more investors will come in, and that Dash's market cap may go back to the $100M market cap level, (where you may not have to see people like us again).
Our main statement is that Dash's treasury budget needs to be fully re-invested at the moment, which I hope is not too controversial of a statement to make. Since spending the Dash monthly budget does not decrease a reservoir of future funds (but instead can accomplish the opposite), it becomes a simple strategy decision to get them deployed fast, and well. That has not been happening, which is why we have gotten involved. We want to see that $1M/mo deployed now. If Core grabs the bull by the horns and takes advantage of its current opportunity, we'll do everything we can in support.
As you stated, we have been aggressively pursuing this agenda through as many channels as possible. We've created DashTreasury.org, we've worked to provide tools to marketing teams within Dash who are making progress, we've organized and taken calls with other MNOs, and done our best to coordinate with Dash Core by email and phone in the attempt to form a cohesive strategy. We're investing a substantial amount of time and money into this, because we know that Dash is at a critical crossroads right now. Dash can regain its #3 position in the market, along with the talent and investment that comes with it, or it can languish down the ranks, with its head buried in the sand not wanting to hear the realities of large business competition.
Our agenda is exceedingly simple and clear. We want 100% of the Dash treasury to be deployed well, and deployed now, and every month after. If Dash Core only wants to pull a portion for R&D, that's perfectly fine. We're just asking that this intention be communicated so that other professional, organized teams can develop in other critical areas. Perhaps after this intention is stated, Dash core can assist in establishing these separate Marketing Core Teams. We all stand to benefit if we can tackle this issue.
We believe that Core is well intentioned and has been extremely busy building Dash products, and for that we remain grateful. As investors, we either 1) want to see Core putting to use more than 30% of the budget, or 2) helping to assist other professional teams pull the other 70% out in a coordinated way.
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dashdisciple
Active member
Hi @IronVape, 100% of this #firstdashwallet data is completely available to the public. You can find it by going to Twitter and performing a search for #firstdashwallet. That will produce a list of over 2000 entrants who have provided image, payment address, twitter URL, follower size, timestamp. None of the data is hidden to the public. It's all fully available for anyone to see, so that nobody has to wait to see the results.
We took this publicly available data and programmed a tool to analyze and compile it to help Amanda and Pete reduce their labor inputs.
Our samples of this compiled data have shown that the Dash is being passed around in various ways, and in varying ratios. Following the payment addresses obviously doesn't provide concrete data in who's eventually getting the money and what exactly they're doing with it, but it's currently the best place to start in getting a general idea of its usage.
Dashmaximalist
Well-known member
Thats good to know , this idea is arguably one of the best Campagins i can think of, its created a whole new level of vibe across people
once we cross say 100k users or something we can probably stop the campaign
cheers
once we cross say 100k users or something we can probably stop the campaign
cheers
AndyDark
Well-known member
DashDisciple,
So effectively you are claiming to represent a new investor group who has are organizaing communications with Masternode operators and 'coordinating' with Dash Core team to push your strategy. And the reason being because Dash needs to regain #3 position in the market cap rankings, presumably so you can earn your ROI and exit (my assumption), apparently either being oblivious to the existing strategy (Evolution) or being implicitly opposed to it.
You've also setup DashTreasury.org, a new, anonymous 'network police' that gives you some centralized influence of the network potentially, ability to sway opinion on proposals and position yourselves as some kind of power broker (outside of the existing system which requires proven ownership of Dash to influence proposals).
You're also subtley hinting that current management doesn't reach your required level of professionalism, which strangely didn't crop up in your due dilligence and apparently oblivious to the fact that management in Dash is produced by MNO's via the governance system, unless you are referring to the Core Team specifically, and if this is not met Dash market cap 'may go back to $100M'.
You also want 100% of Dash treasury to be deployed inperpetuity regardless of what the proposals actually are and you want most of that spent on marketing, you're happy for Dash Core to 'pull a portion for R&D' but you want to setup other teams.
Quite an event in Dash history no? Anonymous guys claiming to buy up large portion of Dash to have this kind of influence, creating websites, coordinating MNOs out of band, agenda to pivot from Evo strategy to raise Dash market cap to a specific position, threatening action if agenda not met?
Quite agressive, negative, toxic attitude to introduce too and not what we're used to in actual MNO's tbh.
Do you have any evidence to any of your claims apart from the things we do know (creating dashtreasury.org, attempting to 'coordinate' with MNOs and the Core team - how do we know this isn't just a social attack to subvert the actual governance system? And even if you did, quite a big risk to invest large stake, get this machine rolling to push your agenda and hope the network and developers doing the coding actually bends to what you want, you must be pretty confident in this?
Best,
Andy
R
RGXDK
Guest
You guys need to start treating the Treasury with more respect. Business decisions here are being made by people with no business experience. Whether a campaign is successful is not a subjective matter, the decision to spend everyone's money isn't subject to how you FEEL about it. Read what UdjinM6 said:
@GrandMasterDash, @Jmmon, @TroyDASH , @TaoOfSatoshi (and even @amanda_b_johnson) haven't provided, so far, any evidence that this campaign is "successful". Again, if 1 MILLION newbies signup, are you going to just give then $20 MILLION DOLLARS for installing an app on their phone? This is a ridiculous idea and if you want to challenge that, present the fact not your opinions.
Here is a list of things that are NOT facts or don't objectively support this campaign:
@GrandMasterDash, @Jmmon, @TroyDASH , @TaoOfSatoshi (and even @amanda_b_johnson) haven't provided, so far, any evidence that this campaign is "successful". Again, if 1 MILLION newbies signup, are you going to just give then $20 MILLION DOLLARS for installing an app on their phone? This is a ridiculous idea and if you want to challenge that, present the fact not your opinions.
Here is a list of things that are NOT facts or don't objectively support this campaign:
- getting dash "out there" (what does that even mean?)
- getting people talking about dash (subjective)
- "Amanda is one of the great innovators in Dash" (that's an opinion and doesn't support anything)
- "Dash's budget needs to be fully re-invested" (that's also an opinion and I can easily challenge that)
- E-commerce spending $1 per click on google ads with a conversion rate of 3% because it earns $100 for every $70 spent.
- UBER offering $30 per ride because they already have a product for the market and models indicate ROI in 6 months.
- Paypal offering $10 per account because they already have a product for the market and models indicate ROI in 6 months.
- Dash doesn't have a product. I'm in the USA and can't spend Dash anywhere.
- Dash isn't ready for the market. The product that is ready for the market is called Evolution guys.
- Companies doing this have precise metrics to measure ROI.
- Those companies doing this have a fiduciary response with their investors. Do you want to spend the funds and dilute the currency supply just because the funds are there? Absolutely NOT!
dashdisciple
Active member
Andy,
The concepts we're putting forth aren't new to the business world. The importance of effective deployment of capital in a competitive industry is not an idea that we came up with ourselves.
We're not interested in being proposal owners on any new marketing teams, nor are we interested in being compensated in any way, but we have offered our resources to assist Ryan in creating effective marketing programs that could be run under the Core umbrella if he wishes. In the absence of those initiatives, however, we will seek to support any other teams who emerge as competent, honest and ambitous marketers of Dash's evolving product offering.
We are not short term investors. We believe in Dash's technology, and we believe that Evolution could be a revolutionary product in this space. We want to make sure that when the product is eventually delivered, Dash has been planning ahead and has the resources in place to take advantage of its place in the market.
We'd like that our investment could stay in Dash forever. We have no interest in going back to fiat, and believe that the technologies of other cryptocurrencies don't provide compelling alternatives.
We understand your instinct to become defensive and/or feel threatened, but that shouldn't be the case. Our long term goals are aligned with Dash's continued success. We support your work on R&D, and are grateful for the hard work Core continues to put into this visionary project.
The concepts we're putting forth aren't new to the business world. The importance of effective deployment of capital in a competitive industry is not an idea that we came up with ourselves.
We're not interested in being proposal owners on any new marketing teams, nor are we interested in being compensated in any way, but we have offered our resources to assist Ryan in creating effective marketing programs that could be run under the Core umbrella if he wishes. In the absence of those initiatives, however, we will seek to support any other teams who emerge as competent, honest and ambitous marketers of Dash's evolving product offering.
We are not short term investors. We believe in Dash's technology, and we believe that Evolution could be a revolutionary product in this space. We want to make sure that when the product is eventually delivered, Dash has been planning ahead and has the resources in place to take advantage of its place in the market.
We'd like that our investment could stay in Dash forever. We have no interest in going back to fiat, and believe that the technologies of other cryptocurrencies don't provide compelling alternatives.
We understand your instinct to become defensive and/or feel threatened, but that shouldn't be the case. Our long term goals are aligned with Dash's continued success. We support your work on R&D, and are grateful for the hard work Core continues to put into this visionary project.