4400+ MN only about 1500 bother to vote.

Acedian

Acedian

Active member
How can we encourage MNO to read and vote on proposals?

If there is a sensible proposal that doesn't pass there is often little feed back as to why people voted No or didn't vote at all. Only a handful of MNO leave comments.

Should the number of required Yes votes be reduced to encourage more input?
 
I don't think there is smth to fix. I personally only vote when the whole picture doesn't quite match my vision which proposals should pass and which shouldn't. If everything looks good enough I don't bother :oops: My guess is that the silent majority of masternodes sharing the same logic essentially delegating voting to the active minority as long as they (majority) are happy with the outcome.
 
Acedian said:
How can we encourage MNO to read and vote on proposals?
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Part of the premise of FundChan funded channel messaging is to incentivize engagement, and I think FundChan could be an effective tool for getting more MNOs involved in the budget process.

Specifically there is a feature called "cliques" which are invitation-only groups of people to whom funded messages can be targeted.

FundChan is now denominated in Dash and we are in closed-beta, but I am glad to send the authorization code to anyone who would like to try it out and give feedback.
 
UdjinM6 said:
I don't think there is smth to fix. I personally only vote when the whole picture doesn't quite match my vision which proposals should pass and which shouldn't. If everything looks good enough I don't bother :oops: My guess is that the silent majority of masternodes sharing the same logic essentially delegating voting to the active minority as long as they (majority) are happy with the outcome.
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There is no way of knowing if this is the case though. If you are incorrect about the majority then stupid proposals may pass and good proposals may fail. At least, we need a way of indicating that a proposal has been read by MNO, don't we?
 
Increasing the number of participants is unlikely to increase the quality of the outcome. Rather than try to get more MNOs involved, it would be better to focus on improving the voting habits of those who are already involved. We need to teach proposers how to create a good quality proposals and how to effectively campaign for the proposal. That way good ideas are less likely to fail and bad ideas will be more apparent.
 
Acedian said:
There is no way of knowing if this is the case though. If you are incorrect about the majority then stupid proposals may pass and good proposals may fail.
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Yep, this can be the case too. But that's where economic incentive starts to push because the more you waste funds on "stupid" proposals and not funding "good" ones the more you damage the price of the token and thus the value of your investments. This should force "silent" majority to wake up and become active.
 
I agree that some MNOs will only vote when the subject is personally important and / or going the wrong way, but I also think it's inevitable that a bunch of people are here simply for the dividend. In theory, poor decisions would lead to lower dash prices.. but when you have so many MNOs, some of them will get cold feet and sell instead of getting more involved with decision making. The question is, how many is "some"? - I have no idea, but it's this exact problem that prompted me to suggest Vote Nodes.

If we create a special Vote Node with no financial incentive, and still requiring some collateral, then what type of person would do that? - I think only those with dash's well being truly at heart would bother with Vote Nodes. (btw, I don't think hackers would bother with Vote Nodes because the costs of buying votes could be proportional to a regular MN)
 
I don't think this is an issue. A silent majority is normal and if they don't see anything wrong then they have no need to step in. It's not an issue of your vote doesn't count. If they feel that way to a large extent they will reduce/exit their dash holdings.

Only problem i have is people voting no without reason or feedback. If you are bothering to vote you should bother to toss in a tiny amount of input for the community.
 
UdjinM6 said:
I don't think there is smth to fix.
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Because your perception of reality is flawed.

UdjinM6 said:
This should force "silent" majority to wake up and become active.
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Wrong.

Cryptotards are like a swam of locusts. They swoop in, eat everything, shit all over, and then disappear as quickly as they came.

When the price tanks, they don't look for a reason. They don't care. They sure as hell aren't introspective about it. They just bail and go pump something else.

You give cryptotards too much credit, and from this draw incorrect conclusions.

Which you then act on, or don't act at all, because you don't believe there is a need based on that false conclusion.

This is one of the most fundamental and obvious facts of behavior in the cryptosphere, and you got it wrong. The subtle power of wishful thinking in an echo chamber...

You believe there is nowhere else they can go. You believe they have an interest in learning how DASH works. They don't even know their neglect impacts it. When the price drops, they bail. It's a swarm that doesn't think anywhere near as much as you imagine they do. It would take significant effort for them to raise themselves to the level of 'brainless savage.'

If DASH existed in a vacuum, your conclusions would be accurate. But it doesn't exist in a vacuum. So your conclusions are not accurate.

You're projecting. You are a civlized and intelligent person. You think logically. You're projecting this persona onto others. Others who are not civilized and intelligent. Others who do not think logically. It's the same as the age-old Concealed Carry argument... "The bad guys have to wonder if I have a gun or not. " No, the bad guys don't have to wonder about that. They're not deep thinkers. They're mindless savages. They just see people to prey upon. Same as cryptotards. They're not deep thinkers.

Voting is the most important function that masternodes provide. It MUST be included in Proof of Service to be effective.

You already created the "abstain" option. Good move. Now, use it!

Make voting compulsory. If you don't vote, your money hose gets shut off.
 
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UdjinM6 said:
I don't think there is smth to fix. I personally only vote when the whole picture doesn't quite match my vision which proposals should pass and which shouldn't. If everything looks good enough I don't bother :oops: My guess is that the silent majority of masternodes sharing the same logic essentially delegating voting to the active minority as long as they (majority) are happy with the outcome.
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I also only vote when I disagree with what is happening... and I will also admit some no votes to proposals I agreed with because I don't trust any election with a 100% approval rate :)
 
ampp said:
Only problem i have is people voting no without reason or feedback. If you are bothering to vote you should bother to toss in a tiny amount of input for the community.
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We should burden them with the need to at least show up.

Once they've learned how to vote, because they have no choice if they want their money hose to work, even if they're just voting abstain...

Since they're going through the motions anyhow, they may as well make their voice heard.

This won't forcibly fix the OP's perceived problem, but it will encourage more voting, while making the PoSe actually worth something... This will encourage more people to inform themselves in order to place that vote. It won't result in 100% compliance/turnout. But it will help by exposing them to the vote system. Once they know how to vote, they may as well make a worthwhile vote. If they're going to vote in a worthwhile manner, they'll have to get informed... It encourages involvement without being overly punitive. There are certain to be plenty of people still not well informed enough that would abstain in good conscience. All we care is that they're showing up. Because if they're showing up, they're figuring it out and getting involved.

Adding in a demand that they explain themselves is going too far. They probably don't even know what they're doing... They can't tell you why because they don't know themselves. But, seriously... When has a dumbass deecided to keep his dumbass opinions to himself? Look around the forum... They do give us reasons. All the time. Usually, very dumb reasons. Which result in education. Savage, brutal education...

@UdjinM6 pointd out the fact that pain is an excellent teacher. but, what he neglected is that they can just ignore the consequences of bad behavior by shitting on DASH and running away.

Don't make the money hose so easy, and they'll be invested with more than just their money. Make voting part of the PoSe, and you encourage many positives. Sure, there will be whiners. There are always whiners. There's no such ting as an action you can take, or not take, that won't result in whiners. that's like "but the wind might blow!" Of course the wind is going to blow. Who fucking cares? Fuck the whiners and do it already. Voting needs to be part of the PoSe.
 
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camosoul said:
Because your perception of reality is flawed.


Wrong.

Cryptotards are like a swam of locusts. They swoop in, eat everything, shit all over, and then disappear as quickly as they came.

When the price tanks, they don't look for a reason. They don't care. They sure as hell aren't introspective about it. They just bail and go pump something else.

You give cryptotards too much credit, and from this draw incorrect conclusions.

Which you then act on, or don't act at all, because you don't believe there is a need based on that false conclusion.

This is one of the most fundamental and obvious facts of behavior in the cryptosphere, and you got it wrong. The subtle power of wishful thinking in an echo chamber...

You believe there is nowhere else they can go. You believe they have an interest in learning how DASH works. They don't even know their neglect impacts it. When the price drops, they bail. It's a swarm that doesn't think anywhere near as much as you imagine they do. It would take significant effort for them to raise themselves to the level of 'brainless savage.'

If DASH existed in a vacuum, your conclusions would be accurate. But it doesn't exist in a vacuum. So your conclusions are not accurate.

You're projecting. You are a civlized and intelligent person. You think logically. You're projecting this persona onto others. Others who are not civilized and intelligent. Others who do not think logically. It's the same as the age-old Concealed Carry argument... "The bad guys have to wonder if I have a gun or not. " No, the bad guys don't have to wonder about that. They're not deep thinkers. They're mindless savages. They just see people to prey upon. Same as cryptotards. They're not deep thinkers.

Voting is the most important function that masternodes provide. It MUST be included in Proof of Service to be effective.

You already created the "abstain" option. Good move. Now, use it!

Make voting compulsory. If you don't vote, your money hose gets shut off.
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I wouldn't count every silent MNO as a "cryptotard". I guess we can agree that there are 3 possible groups of MNOs: active voters, "lurkers", "cryptotards" (I would call them "speculators"). I might be wrong but I believe that the further the project moves the less "cryptotards"/"speculators" we should have and the more real investors, people who actually care about the project/investment effectiveness (either actively or silently). The former will probably sell taking profit if price dips, the later will take the opportunity to buy lower. What we need is to have more people looking at Dash as an opportunity to invest and increase ROI by participating in voting process (or even additionally via submitting "good" proposals). I hope there is a slow transition from being a niche project mostly nerds and "cryptotards"/"speculators" are interested in to being the one recognizable by a wider audience.

Forcing MNOs to vote won't work, it's a matter of a simple script to always vote "abstain" on all proposals. This will only add useless network load, nothing else.
 
This is a democracy problem rather than a Crypto problem.

It is hard to solve.

One idea is that;
  • Voters (MNO's) can choose to vote themselves or can delegate their vote to another entity (Lets call them Expert Evaluators, EE's...its just a name and doesn't imply expertise) that has the power to cast their MNO vote on a proposal.
  • EE's voting histories are transparent and their voting history is public for all to see (and comment on).
  • - If you have allowed your vote to be used by an EE you are able to see what they voted yes to and what they voted no to (as is everyone), and remove or continue your support of that EE
  • - A Monthly report is composed and distributed by the EE's (or an EE Admin) to all MNO's listing the EE's voting direction and preferably also a short rationale for each decision on each proposal.
  • MNO's can reclaim their delegated votes at any time
  • - Lets say they disagree with the way that their EE voted on some things, or just one thing, they can remove their support
  • - Lets say that they have more free time and want to evaluate proposals themselves
No MNO is forced to use the system of EE's, and can always and at anytime user their vote themselves, but if they feel that a better system is to delegate then they can do that.

This is actually a purer form of 'informed democracy' and is the way that nations should vote, but until now this has not been logistically possible.

One possible issue of course, is that 'Unreasonable Proposal ZOMG!' is voted through by an EE voting block, all the MNO's receive the Monthly report after the fact and go 'WTF! All the money to sponsor Baby Giraffes in Mongolia!?' but by then its too late...

So maybe during the open period of a proposal it would be listed that EE Block 'Ivote4U' is currently pledging 60 MNO's votes to 'yes' or whatever, so any MNO that has delegated to that block can remove support if they like.

I am very interested in the MNO > Proposal system and seeing how this develops as it is, if you like, a testbed for a new democracy movement.
- Will MNO's get voter fatigue when required to vote on every proposal (Imagine that you were required to vote on every piece of legislation your government wanted to pass...this would be a full time job and you wouldn't have the time to review all the proposals with enough depth to be able to make an informed decision)
- Could such a decentralised system work on a nation level (or at least in a better way than the current 'Democracy' system?)

The advantage of the current MNO > Proposal system of course, is that it is only voting on positive outcomes (shall we give Proposal X an amount of Y DASH?), and has no power to create negative outcomes (ALL of you will be unable to do THIS!)

Unfortunately, Governments spend a lot of their time limiting what their citizens can do, and so such a system outlined above has issues when votes can be cast to impinge on the rights of other groups of (minority) citizens. The DASH proposal system is inherently positive and would therefore work much better in a system outlined as above.

Comments and criticism welcome!

Come on...I can take it...

- Expecting a rant from Camosoul
- Expecting 'but decentralisation!' arguments (the above is still decentralised, it is just organised...the two can and should co-exist)
- Expecting that you didn't read this far down the post...
 
I've often thought about how the DAO could be adopted to government and I think it will be a dream come true!
You won't vote on everything - way too many proposals covering all aspects of government, but if you are a fisherman you will vote on the Harbour proposal because it impacts you. The residents living close by as well; The Fisheries dept guys as well, etc etc. You are bound to get reasonably informed people voting. In the same way, the Proposal Evaluation Committee will be introducing Categories in the next phase and that should incentivise MNO's to vote more since they will be able to concentrate on proposals that fall in their area of interest, instead of looking at 20+ proposals and think TLDR! and simply vote NO (as one MNO said).
I consider multi party democracy a proven failure and would far prefer to live in a municipality/state/country run like a DAO. No more politicians!

How many potholes will there be in your town if the Roads Dept Budget gets voted on monthly?
 
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As I'd guess that being a masternode owner is a part-time activity for most, the problem is that there are too many small proposals to keep up with. So personally I focus on the big ones and vote on those.
I floated my idea previously on this and it essentially mirrors @Benglian: delegate the 'smaller' (threshold TBD) proposals to a group that gets paid to evaluate and vote them up or down. Obviously there would be details to iron out to make this work but it would be much more efficient.
 
holgum said:
As I'd guess that being a masternode owner is a part-time activity for most, the problem is that there are too many small proposals to keep up with. So personally I focus on the big ones and vote on those.
I floated my idea previously on this and it essentially mirrors @Benglian: delegate the 'smaller' (threshold TBD) proposals to a group that gets paid to evaluate and vote them up or down. Obviously there would be details to iron out to make this work but it would be much more efficient.
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In the works - talking to @mastermined about that soon - Dash Force takes most of the small meetups etc under their wing
 
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Random thought..

How about each proposal must include a list of hashtags. Then, sites like Dash Central would allow MNOs to vote manually or delegate based on hashtags.

For example, proposals marked #PointOfSale could be automatically delegated, whereas #marketing would be voted manually or rise to the top of list.

I'm just thinking, the use of hashtags could be the simplest and most efficient way to deal with things.
 
GrandMasterDash said:
Random thought..

How about each proposal must include a list of hashtags. Then, sites like Dash Central would allow MNOs to vote manually or delegate based on hashtags.

For example, proposals marked #PointOfSale could be automatically delegated, whereas #marketing would be voted manually or rise to the top of list.

I'm just thinking, the use of hashtags could be the simplest and most efficient way to deal with things.
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I guess the Hashtag idea is just another way of putting the category idea of @Biltong. Same idea, I think.
 
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