2nd Tier Lite Nodes

[InTheWoods]

I would like to introduce the concept of 2nd Tier Lite Nodes.

When Masternodes were released a requirement of having 1k DASH to stave off Sybil attacks was included. This requirement made sense in order to make sure someone won't just create fake nodes with the purpose of de-anonymizing the transaction. Later on Masternodes were also give the power to vote, again this made sense somewhat since otherwise voting system could have been abused if say everyone would have had the power to vote from inside any wallet. It would have been easy to create dozens of wallets and vote dozens of times. This allowed DASH to have the first decentralized governance system by blockchain ever implemented which is awesome. It also paved the way to the first decentralized virtual corporation.

It has been recently discussed, 1 2 creating an alternative tier of low requirement nodes in order to further decentralize governance and make the system more inclusive and to also better showcase this cool technology. Some have suggested naming these nodes Vote Nodes (VN), 3rd node tier was also mentioned.

Naming these nodes 3rd tier can cause some confusion because 3rd tier application will be hosted on top of the 2nd tier of masternodes at a later date which will just make things confusing. Vote Nodes would be confusing also because Masternodes get to vote as well. The name won't work either.

Because the idea here is to allow the microinvestor to participate in the decision making process, I think Lite Nodes would make for a better name.

This means the 2nd tier of nodes could be composed of high requirement (1k DASH) Masternodes and low requirement Lite Nodes, both with voting capability.

Calling these nodes Lite Nodes makes sense because they won't have high hardware or DASH holding requirements but they can unload some of the Masternode burden and perform specific work like handling a chunk of the decentralized storage or something else perhaps.

To make a political analogy, the Masternodes would be the senators and the Lite Nodes would be the congressmen or the members of parliament, depending on country.

 

[SnowHater]

I am not sure on this but do we need to make network hierachy (or bueracracy) more complex just to add voting ability to every user? I rember Evan said that current number of masternodes is redundant for the network load of now.

 

[bluebit]

The 1000 Dash Masternode requirement is just fine, we don't need lite Masternodes. You can already share a Masternode with other investors and earn Dash.

 

[InTheWoods]

I am not sure on this but do we need to make network hierachy (or bueracracy) more complex just to add voting ability to every user? I rember Evan said that current number of masternodes is redundant for the network load of now.

Not sure you've checked out how the whole system works or will work. The Evolution Masternodes will have pretty high bandwith/storage requirements. Evan was talking about current state of things. Lite Nodes could unload some of the burden from masternodes.

You can't add voting to every user. System could be easily abused. There needs to be a minimum requirement in place.

bluebit

Decentralizing voting and improving the process is the idea here not allowing people to get a slice of the masternode pie which is already possible (I'm perfectly aware of that). Read those two other threads I've linked in the first post.

 

[SnowHater]

What about something like escrow account (or something like smart-contract in Ethereum) which you need to send your money to on some period in order to get ability to vote?

 

[sangoku]

The 1000 Dash Masternode requirement is just fine, we don't need lite Masternodes. You can already share a Masternode with other investors and earn Dash.

Ok, but how to organize a vote inside a shared masternode ?

 

[Sapereaude]

The 1000 Dash Masternode requirement is just fine, we don't need lite Masternodes. You can already share a Masternode with other investors and earn Dash.

Yeah I fail to see any justifiable reason for litenodes.

 

[Sapereaude]

Ok, but how to organize a vote inside a shared masternode ?

That assumes that every investor wants to vote or has the technical ability to vote (I really hate the idea of making the network idiot friendly) and its a free market so you can negotiate with the other owners or suppliers of shared masternode services can offer different options for customers. It's hard to justify complicated protocol changes just to make it easier for small investors.

 

[sangoku]

Sapereaude
Ok, but before the dash was at 0.2$, now it's 5$, so 1000 dash is not the same value.
For me the requirement for a masternode will must change to 100 dash.
Otherwise it's a system created for the early adopters and nobody else.
The first users create a lot of masternode "lower cost", with the rewards create another masternode, it's a loop.
A private loop for early adopters.

In this case 80% of the masternodes belong at 6-7 persons.
So it's very easy to past any votes.

 

[SnowHater]

That assumes that every investor wants to vote or has the technical ability to vote (I really hate the idea of making the network idiot friendly) and its a free market so you can negotiate with the other owners or suppliers of shared masternode services can offer different options for customers.

I have bought recently 200 shares of MN and it is quite big summ for me right now. it is more than my income per month :smile:. So, right now I'm starting to suspect that DASH isn't friendly to me, lol.

 

[Sapereaude]

Sapereaude
Ok, but before the dash was at 0.2$, now it's 5$, so 1000 dash is not the same value.
For me the requirement for a masternode will must change to 100 dash.
Otherwise it's a system created for the early adopters and nobody else.
The first users create a lot of masternode "lower cost", with the rewards create another masternode, it's a loop.
A private loop for early adopters.

In this case 80% of the masternodes belong at 6-7 persons.
So it's very easy to past any votes.

The system is created to secure the 2tier network, this network does all the awsome stuff like IX,Darksend,Evolution and so they are rewarded for providing this service.

Yes I know the price has gone up and 1000Dash is not the same value, so what? You can still invest, just a buy a share in a node. You are still proportionally getting the same % return as a the guy that owns the full node. He just has more money and well that's life.

Now if you were arguing we need to 500Dash nodes so we have more nodes\computational power for these services then that might be a reasonable argument, but I would say for now it's more important to work on Evo then do that.

 

[Sapereaude]

I have bought recently 200 shares of MN and it is quite big summ for me right now. it is more than my income per month :smile:. So, right now I'm starting to suspect that DASH isn't friendly to me, lol.

I'm not saying it's not a big investment for you, but that is an investment you have chosen to make. I am referring to making running an masternode idiot friendly and that is a slippery slope I see no reason we should be considering.

Edit- Especially with all the guides etc around it really is not rocket science to get one up and running.

 

[InTheWoods]

sangoku SnowHater

Yes and yes. System can and should be improved. It's called evolution.

I believe some masternode owners are a bit short sighted and don't see the full picture. You have to balance short term gain with long term benefits. Otherwise you'll end up playing with yourself in a deserted project and that's no fun. Other projects will fork some cool feature DASH has, make project more inclusive and take larger market share. Do you want that?

 

[sangoku]

Sapereaude

Please don't change your sentence
Are you living in the real world ? "You can still invest, just a buy a share in a node and $5000 usd is not a monstrous amount of money."
It's a lot of money for more and more people.
Buy 1000 dash at 0.2$ it's not the same at 5$

So for me, if the price of the masternode stay the same, it's a system created for the early adopters and nobody else.
At the beginning, with 5000$ it was possible to place 15 or more.
And with the instamine "1.6 millions dash" in 48 hours it's easy to place 300 masternodes for nothing.
With 300 masternodes it's easy to create more news masternodes.
It's a fact, the instamine of x dash in 48 hours.

So now that the dash is at 5$, normaly the value for to create a masternode will must down.
100 or 200 dash is a good value.

 

[Sapereaude]

Sapereaude

Please don't change your sentence
Are you living in the real world ? "You can still invest, just a buy a share in a node and $5000 usd is not a monstrous amount of money."
It's a lot of money for more and more people.
Buy 1000 dash at 0.2$ it's not the same at 5$

So for me, if the price of the masternode stay the same, it's a system created for the early adopters and nobody else.
At the beginning, with 5000$ it was possible to place 15 or more.
And with the instamine "1.6 millions dash" in 48 hours it's easy to place 300 masternodes for nothing.
With 300 masternodes it's easy to create more news masternodes.
It's a fact, the instamine of x dash in 48 hours.

So now that the dash is at 5$, normaly the value for to create a masternode will must down.
100 or 200 dash is a good value.

Yes I know the price has gone up and 1000Dash is not the same value, so what? You can still invest, just a buy a share in a node. You are still proportionally getting the same % return as a the guy that owns the full node. He just has more money and well that's life.

 

[GrandMasterDash]

I have bought recently 200 shares of MN and it is quite big summ for me right now. it is more than my income per month :smile:. So, right now I'm starting to suspect that DASH isn't friendly to me, lol.

Yeah, but as the price of dash goes up, your profits also go up... it's not a fixed income detached from the price of dash.

 

[SnowHater]

Sorry for repeating but is fractional voting possible without lowering of MN's collateral? ASAIK number of masternodes is redundant already compared with load of users's transactions.

 

[sangoku]

Yes I know the price has gone up and 1000Dash is not the same value, so what? You can still invest, just a buy a share in a node. You are still proportionally getting the same % return as a the guy that owns the full node. He just has more money and well that's life.

Are you read ?
If the price for one masternode stays at 1000 dash it's clearly a system designed for the early adopters and especialy for the miners at the beginning.
1.6 millions dash in the first 48 hours
How many masternodes with 1.6 millions dash ?
It's a lot of masternodes for nothing. 48 hours mining = 10$ electricity ?

So all masternodes belong at 6-7 persons.
In this case it's very easy for to past any vote.

 

[Sapereaude]

sangoku SnowHater

Yes and yes. System can and should be improved. It's called evolution.

I believe some masternode owners are a bit short sighted and don't see the full picture. You have to balance short term gain with long term benefits. Otherwise you'll end up playing with yourself in a deserted project and that's no fun. Other projects will fork some cool feature DASH has, make project more inclusive and take larger market share. Do you want that?

Improved how? When you buy into a sharenode you get the same return on investment as the guy with 50 nodes, there is no need to change the security or the protocol of system since both small and large investors get rewarded on their investment. One just has more money and making smaller nodes won't change that.

As for forking, no one is going to abandon this development team to invest in some unknown guys who have learned how to copy and paste....

 

[InTheWoods]

sangoku

Evolution will have higher requirements. Masternode costs will go up somewhat not as much as the profits as DASH gains in price.

There are now two types of nodes, DASH full nodes and DASH masternodes. The full nodes don't get any rewards. They are basically operated at a loss.

Lite Nodes could replace full nodes and unload some of the Masternode tasks as well.