2nd Tier Lite Nodes

InTheWoods said:
GrandMasterDash

Not sure how your education or lack there off is of any relevance here. What are we discussing here?

You've made the claim an individual can replicate what Warren Buffett does with his Berkshire company and I've explained why you are wrong and then you've went offtopic attacking me personally without having any arguments to counter what I've stated. So what are we talking about here? You were the one to throw around insults.
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Okay, I'm done with you. You said, "I'm probably know more about economics than a bunch of you naysayers put together.". And my response was precisely on point.. but then you said, "Not sure how your education or lack there off is of any relevance here.". If you don't understand that then I can't help you.

To your Warren Buffett question, I said you could mirror his investments at a smaller level, to which you said, "That's not the point". Well ffs, one minute you can't afford to buy Warren Buffett shares (like it's a god given right), and when you get a solution and you don't like it! I'm not going to bother responding to this, I'm done. I'll just let you have the last say, that's what you want, you can have it. You've basically got the answers in your head and desperately defending them. Oh, but let me guess, now I'm "off point" again. Well, if you had paused to think, you'd realise that many people here do share similar values to yourself; openness, transparency, democracy, accountability and so on. Stop thinking in terms of "them and us" and don't under estimate or under value others.
 
So guys, I've written PROS and CONS about fractional voting. You have seen it. Do you have anything to add? Or maybe you have your own structured vision of PROS and CONS of it? I would like to see it. Maybe we could combine/merge them instead of abuse each other.
 
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GrandMasterDash

I've made that statement after you've suggested I'm clueless about economics. Get it? It was you the one who was patronizing, instead of discussing the issue at hand not me and you suddenly felt offended I've responded in kind.
 
Or:
- these people are too insistent;
- these people are too stupid;
either way, this is a troll thread, for me.
 
SnowHater said:
Actually, I do hold US dollars as an investment right now:grin:. The thing is that my native currency is russian ruble.
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I'm in the same boat ;) but technically US dollars is not an investment - you don't put rubles into USD to support US growth, you only put rubles in USD to save your holdings.

Now on the topic itself.

I feel that we are nicely balanced right now actually: we have miners (very limited hardcore group, invested in hardware), masternoders (quite limited midcore group, invested in masternodes) and common users (unlimited group, in and out without borders because there is no investment, only speculations and day to day use).
Few words about power they have:
- Miners are invested in some hardware that is not specific for Dash - they have voting power by either hashing or not for the network.
- Users are using whatever currency they find useful/promising/etc at some point of time - they have voting power by exchanging this specific currency for some other.
- Masternoders are those who provide actual services on the network but they do not have hardware that you can easily track as a vote (like miners' hashes) and it would be really sad to see many masternodes offloaded to market to realize that masternoders doesn't like smth. So they have a specific mechanism to cast their votes.

Shall we introduce yet another role in ecosystem - a small investor/shareholder/voter? Few thoughts below.

First of all I think voting nodes should have less voting power (if they would ever exist) because they provide no service to the network (other than being yet another full node like any other Dash Core wallet, which is not that bad actually but is not enough). Suppose voting node worth 200 DASH but have a voting power of only 0.1 (btw this should also incentivize people to "mutate" their multiple voting nodes into a single MN once they have enough funds).
So you'd need:
- 200 DASH locked in place for quite some time (to prevent sybil attacks) to be able to vote;
- a single node (most likely a VPS which will require you to pay for its hosting) for every 200 DASH you'd like to vote with to get a 0.1 of vote.
And you will not be getting anything in return unlike masternoders do.
How many of such small investors (?) would really bother setting up such nodes (having in mind that this node actually brings losses - payments for hosting)?

But ok, let's suppose that there is at least the same amount of people who can afford 200 DASH and who would like to setup a voting node at their own expense for some reason (i.e. we are not wasting time dev-ing it). So we would have twice as much nodes as we have now. From technical perspective this means that we would need to sync and hold in memory a list of yet another 3500+ voting nodes and I don't think that we are ready for this with our current infrastructure - even though we have 3500 MNs, most of them are small VPSes actually and I'm almost 100% sure that this kind of change would require most of them to upgrade to a higher tier (at least for better RAM/bandwidth) just to keep doing their work at current userbase. I guess that their hosting cost would double. However if introducing voting nodes feature would make price jump to higher levels than that would be ok for masternoders too probably.

Another point to think of is that even if number of voting nodes would be the same as number of MNs all of them (voting nodes) together would have only ~10% of total voting power.

So, imo it's:
low demand for voting nodes -> same price, same hosting costs for MNs, no effect on voting (i.e. completely wasted dev time)
VS
high demand for voting nodes -> higher price, higher hosting costs for MNs (but could be ok because of higher prices), low effect on voting (i.e. not that bad but...)

Which one is the right suggestion? I have no idea but I personally doubt in high demand for voting nodes tbh...
 
InTheWoods said:
The point is some people in other parts of the world can't save the way an American like yourself can save. It would take some people in some parts of the world many years to save what an american like yourself could save in one or two months.

Do we want an inclusive system or just a system of middle class people from rich countries to be part of DASH? That's the question.
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I lived on the streets for 3 years buddy, not by choice. I pulled myself out of a ditch and got myself up. Who decides what "poor" is? You?

What's the difference between some poor person in one country who can afford to eat but not purchase a masternode(a), and another person in another country who can't even afford to eat?(b)?

With your logic every person on this planet should get to vote. If masternode requirements go down because person (a) above wanted to be able to afford one, well now what about person (b)? Person (b) shouldnt be excluded because he cant afford one right?

This is not some socialistic project that's going to change world issues.


Comodore said:
OMG. Stop this trolling. You are killing reason behind these concepts.
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Many new accounts posting same things. Wouldn't be surprised if they all have the same ip adress.
 
UdjinM6

Why not get anything in return for providing such service? Litenodes don't have to just replace what the full nodes are doing. They can offload some of the job of the masternodes, leaving more bandwith and capability for masternodes. Litenodes or vote nodes could be rewarded as well just like masternodes, Why restrict incentive model to masternodes alone? The requirement for masternodes will be quite high. Atm some operate Pi2 Masternodes. This will be pretty hard to do after the Evolution upgrade.

The demand for voting? Well, I think you can't really make the case for DASH as being a decentralized community driven project as long as you will have votes costing 10k per pop, decentralized governance is the wrong name for it as long as you have such high barrier to entry. This is very restrictive. There are probably less than 1k people with voting rights. If I were to take a wild guess I'd say there are around 500-600 people with voting rights owning multiple masternodes if not less. Hardly decentralized right? I don't think this is the message DASH wants to send to the larger community if DASH wants to grow. This is a large barrier to growth. The decentralized governance by blockchain is a very cool idea. If DASH doesn't fully take advantage of it, some other project will. I have no doubt about it. It's either us or some other project. I believe the potential to get lots of people onboard because of this feature is really huge. Is there demand for it? You bet.

This is not about capitalism vs socialism or any such dichotomies as some people wrongly believe. This is about having a truly decentralized system versus a centralized one. The more inclusive DASH becomes, the more decentralized. That's the whole point.

Unfortunately there are plenty of dilettantes here who don't know much about political philosophy in general and who think they know how shit works.Thing is masternodes are like senators and litenodes would be like parliament members or congressmen. It's really stupid to talk about socialism vs capitalism. Really fucking stupid. A socialist system is highly statist thus centralized system. It's the very opposite actually. You want a capitalist system, you have to decentralize and move power away from one individual or from a small group of people.
 
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Comodore said:
OMG. Stop this trolling
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buster said:
I lived on the streets for 3 years buddy, not by choice. I pulled myself out of a ditch and got myself up. Who decides what "poor" is? You?

What's the difference between some poor person in one country who can afford to eat but not purchase a masternode(a), and another person in another country who can't even afford to eat?(b)?

With your logic every person on this planet should get to vote. If masternode requirements go down because person (a) above wanted to be able to afford one, well now what about person (b)? Person (b) shouldnt be excluded because he cant afford one right?

This is not some socialistic project that's going to change world issues.



Many new accounts posting same things. Wouldn't be surprised if they all have the same ip adress.
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Yeah
This is the project that is GOING TO WORK AND CHANGE THE WORLD FOR BETTER. Not some stupid and manipulative brain washing socialistic nonsense
 
Comodore

Dude, you are socialist and the brainwashed one if you believe keeping governance centralized is the capitalist way. Centralized governance = central planning = soviet russia/nazi germany/cuba/north korea etc.
 
InTheWoods said:
UdjinM6

This is not about capitalism vs socialism or any such dichotomies as some people wrongly believe. This is about having a truly decentralized system versus a centralized one. The more inclusive DASH becomes, the more decentralized. That's the whole point.

Unfortunately there are plenty of dilettantes here who don't know much about political philosophy in general and who think they know how shit works.Thing is masternodes are like senators and litenodes would be like parliament members or congressmen. It's really stupid to talk about socialism vs capitalism. Really fucking stupid. A socialist system is highly statist thus centralized system. It's the very opposite actually. You want a capitalist system, you have to decentralize and move power away from one individual or from a small group of people.
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More back handed insults made in passing. I don't give a shit how long you been here or how long you been in DASH. You are a troll trolling anyone who doesn't agree with your bullshit lite node model. Any credibility you had is lost in these pages of posts. You will be the first person I ignore on these forums.
 
buster

Is it so hard to really argue the point instead of doing ad hominems? I'm surprised to see so very few rational people here capable of arguing a point.

Why do you insult me by calling me a troll and why do you think I'm trolling and why do you call my lite node model bullshit? Why not be constructive and contribute to the conversation?
 
InTheWoods said:
buster

Is it so hard to really argue the point instead of doing ad hominems? I'm surprised to see so very few rational people here capable of arguing a point.

Why do you insult me by calling me a troll and why do you think I'm trolling and why do you call my lite node model bullshit? Why not be constructive and contribute to the conversation?
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?

because 1000 dash MN now worth 1 vote, with your litenode 1000 Dash worth 10 vote.
so why dont you pool your Dash with all your friend to reach 1000 dash and make 1 MN ?
 
TO that troll: I dont have problem with lite nodes.

But dont kill the idea behind masternodes to make your socialist utopia (read brain wash everyone and get into power without knowing or having working experience) come true

So create a case when this will be useful.
 
Comodore

What are you talking about? No one was arguing about dismantling masternodes. Did I ever say that? Lite Node system could work in parallel with the Masternodes.

The other stuff you've said doesn't really make sense to me.
 
honestly i dont mind having litenode say 100 dash but voting is weighted 0.1 vote instead of 1 vote.

otherwise the litenode can be used to attack proposal, either to kill worthy proposal or to pump garbage proposal.
 
Comodore said:
TO that troll: I dont have problem with lite nodes.

But dont kill the idea behind masternodes to make your socialist utopia (read brain wash everyone and get into power without knowing or having working experience) come true

So create a case when this will be useful.
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How come some group of people would get into power with less than 10% of common voting power? This is just impossible. The talk is about inclusion not about getting into power, domination or dictation.
 
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