• Forum has been upgraded, all links, images, etc are as they were. Please see Official Announcements for more information

Roadmap dates already innacurate?

Stealth923

Stealth923

Well-known member
Foundation Member
So, here we are in October with silence from the Core team. The roadmap was only just updated with dates, which I was holding the team to and thought to be accurate...why is communication and holding to a timeline so difficult for the core team? I am not just talking about this instance, I have been around since 2014.....

Anyone have any updates to where each of the deliverable's below are, there was no information from the conference about any of the below?? did I miss some delay communication?? Should I just reset my expectations that this will be delivered sometime 2018? @Ryan Taylor @UdjinM6 @kot

DashPay Wallet Alpha (September 2017)
  • Dash version of CoPay, pre-Evolution functions, on test-net
  • Will lead to full Evolution wallet (not merely a web wallet)
  • DashCore 12.2 Release (September 2017)
  • 2MB block size increase, activation in November 2017
  • 2MB / 5MB block research documentation
  • Launch of a read-only/view-only portal for project documentation which will be open to the entire community (to ensure transparency)

Edit: And before people start with the "I would rather have it done properly and wait longer" message, we are paying the Core team to run a multi billion dollar organisation...if you release dates stick to them or communicate accordingly with your board(MNs)/investors.
 
Last edited:
- DashCore 12.2 Release (September 2017)
I explained the issue with dates in roadmap there https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/...uorum-exploit-method.16492/page-2#post-140935 As for actual results, we tested 2mb blocks and all other fixes and everything was looking good but we decided to test activation once again, from scratch. It took few additional days to fork and stabilize network and then few more to execute all the steps. Activation went smoothly. In fact it was too smooth which was suspicious and we figured out that there was a bug in activation code (which would cause IS fix to be useless btw). So we fixed it but because we'd like to execute activation cleanly we had to fork testnet yet again. We'll probably skip few initial tests which were ok and should not be affected by the bug to make it a bit faster this time but still a few days are needed. Then we'll start v12.2 testing thread here on forum and welcome everyone to join. Hopefully nothing will break and a week or so on top of that will be enough. With all this in mind, release date is going to be somewhere in the mid of Oct. I think.

- 2MB block size increase, activation in November 2017
According to DIP0001 its activation starts Oct 15th, 2017, activation window is 4032 blocks (~1week) and we need at least 2 of them (1 to lock in and 1 to activate), so 2mb block size increase in November is still quite possible unless new critical issues are found.
 
I am okay with delays but I am not okay with the lack of updates / feedback. I get the whole secrecy / first-mover-advantage thing, but the prolonged absence of news is very disconcerting. In fact, I was thinking, maybe we should designate a day in October where we de-fund Core for 24 hours, just to send them a message. Yes, we want rock solid products but zero news is killing us.

I also realize, MNOs shouldn't be trusted with sensitive project developments, but we have a news dao and it might be prudent to trust at least one person there so that timely and interesting news can be disseminated in a controlled manner.
 
GrandMasterDash said:
I am okay with delays but I am not okay with the lack of updates / feedback. I get the whole secrecy / first-mover-advantage thing, but the prolonged absence of news is very disconcerting. In fact, I was thinking, maybe we should designate a day in October where we de-fund Core for 24 hours, just to send them a message. Yes, we want rock solid products but zero news is killing us.
Click to expand...

Definitely agree with you. I actually fully trust our Core Team but it's true that when a groupe sees that it receives 1000 yes' and only few no's every month for a long time and this whatever has happened during the month (meaning no giving update or report has no consequences), might lead a group that is swamped with work to put report at the end of the line of priority. No that they don't want to do it, but as compared to maybe other deadlines, report are just seen as consequenceless...

That's my theory, could be another reason but, anyways, the fact is, I don't want to be invested in a group or coin that cannot do a serious and monthly reporting.

Let's put the report and communication with the community at the top of the priority line ! We are build on that, nothing else
 
ok
GrandMasterDash said:
I am okay with delays but I am not okay with the lack of updates / feedback. I get the whole secrecy / first-mover-advantage thing, but the prolonged absence of news is very disconcerting. In fact, I was thinking, maybe we should designate a day in October where we de-fund Core for 24 hours, just to send them a message. Yes, we want rock solid products but zero news is killing us.

I also realize, MNOs shouldn't be trusted with sensitive project developments, but we have a news dao and it might be prudent to trust at least one person there so that timely and interesting news can be disseminated in a controlled manner.
Click to expand...
Agree, today is 5th Oct, but where is Aug and Sept monthly report? Even if it is released today, we need a monthly report with 2 months delay?
 
Last edited:
I've never owned an iphone but back in the day, Jobs's "one more thing" moment was killer. Of course, dash is not apple, but for the conference, I was waiting for that moment. It wasn't a desire to see a pump, I just want people to see dash for what it is, a powerhouse, doing stuff that other cryptos only dream of. Not to say the conference was a failure because I'm sure the networking was invaluable. And btw, special mention to Chuck Williams, his "dash is a platform" thing was impressive. We need more people like him.

I just want Core to help fill the void between Core and it's key stakeholders. It will inspire us, motivate us and focus our minds.
 
It's like they're looking for ways to tank confidence...

It's nice that @UdjinM6 steps up to the plate in their absence. But, that only makes the actual problem that much more obvious; their absence.
 
<rant>
Lack of an official communication (or the quality of it) from the Core is quite disturbing. At the time roadmap has been published I tought that finally we have a good plan and deadlines, but now I'm quite dissapointed. I'm watching this project since 2015 and I see now that nothing has changed.

I understand that Core Team doesn't want to pump the price by annoucing big integrations for DASH - the stability of the price is very important factor for merchants and users. But when they say that "major announcements" will be provided and then they don't deliver, it has quite negative impact on the price (what we see now). When the don't meet deadlines they set by themselves it looks really unprofessional.

You'll say that price fluctuactions will decrease with more liquidity, but in my opinion we won't reach mass adoption if the price of the coin is going down, just because someone used wrong words to formulate conference agenda, or by missing deadlines all the time.

GrandMasterDash said:
In fact, I was thinking, maybe we should designate a day in October where we de-fund Core for 24 hours, just to send them a message.
Click to expand...
I think that's actually good idea to send such clear message to the Core, that communication must be better.

Leonidas said:
I actually fully trust our Core Team
Click to expand...
If you are a business owner you don't "trust" your employees, but you check their work instead. Trusting that the project will be completed on time (if ever) won't bring you good results.
</rant>

I'd like to see a post in General Annoucements section describing when exactly 12.2 will be delivered, what will be there, does the delay affect releases of Evo, are there any ideas how to make communication between the Core Team (employees) and MN owners (employers) better ?
 
Stealth923 said:
So, here we are in October with silence from the Core team. The roadmap was only just updated with dates, which I was holding the team to and thought to be accurate...why is communication and holding to a timeline so difficult for the core team? I am not just talking about this instance, I have been around since 2014.....

Anyone have any updates to where each of the deliverable's below are, there was no information from the conference about any of the below?? did I miss some delay communication?? Should I just reset my expectations that this will be delivered sometime 2018? @Ryan Taylor @UdjinM6 @kot

DashPay Wallet Alpha (September 2017)
  • Dash version of CoPay, pre-Evolution functions, on test-net
  • Will lead to full Evolution wallet (not merely a web wallet)
  • DashCore 12.2 Release (September 2017)
  • 2MB block size increase, activation in November 2017
  • 2MB / 5MB block research documentation
  • Launch of a read-only/view-only portal for project documentation which will be open to the entire community (to ensure transparency)

Edit: And before people start with the "I would rather have it done properly and wait longer" message, we are paying the Core team to run a multi billion dollar organisation...if you release dates stick to them or communicate accordingly with your board(MNs)/investors.
Click to expand...

This is what frustrated me so badly about Ethereum, when I was waiting for it to launch. Software is *always* late. Always. I really wish that the powers-that-be would take the dates given them and add 3-6 months to them. Underpromise, then surprise everybody by overdelivering.

We've got an awesome team and I'm very proud of them. I do wish somebody would add padding to our roadmap deadlines though. There are *always* unanticipated problems.
 
Well, if they haven't delivered an update by the end of October, I propose we go ahead with ABCD (A Boycott Core Day) :)
 
David said:
Software is *always* late. Always. I really wish that the powers-that-be would take the dates given them and add 3-6 months to them. Underpromise, then surprise everybody by overdelivering.
Click to expand...

Heh, I regularly doubled my team time estimates before presenting them to a customer. Guess what, sometimes we still missed a day :)

Guess, that would be an issue until we'll launch a software developer AI ;)
 
Part of the problem with these roadmap dates is that the project is so difficult to properly scope out when we're doing bleeding edge stuff, so coming up with realistic and accurate goals is not easy. I kind of expect that things are going to get pushed back fairly often. However, whenever it starts becoming evident to the team that the original estimate can no longer be met, it would be a great idea for the core team to actually communicate that information and revise the estimate proactively, instead of saying nothing, waiting for the date to pass and for anxious investors to start asking questions. (*Ahemcharlie*)
Having a dedicated communications coordinator might indeed help -- not for stuff like official press releases but more for investor/community relations with core.

The core team quarterly conference call has been a huge step in the right direction, because regardless of any other happenings or radio silence, recently we have gotten to have a full status update, answered questions, and a reset of expectations every 3 months. Managing expectations is huge.
@kot -- is there going to be a conference call scheduled for Q3? Last one for Q2 was a little under 3 months ago so maybe it's not quite overdue yet, but soon ;)
 
Last edited:
Hey Guys,
We are doing a lot of changes internally. New DIPs process defined by Andy made us to re-think the way we are going to work on the Evolution development. We are also working on the communication and reporting, so it is comprehensive and clear.
The basic plan is to finalise current version of DIPs by the middle of November and then we will adopt it to the roadmap and re-work project plans. When it is done, I will make sure that it is communicated, so everyone is on the same page.

PS. Last months we are traveling very intensively, and I am aware that the communication became irregular. This will be addressed as well (probably by hiring a person who will be collecting all of the status info and sharing with the community)
 
I'm in software development since about 15 years, and one of the most important things I learned is: Never give too precise estimates, and this gets more and more important as further your estimates go into the future. This is because software development is not only difficult, but most importantly: it's extremely complex. And something being only difficult or being complex are two very different things.

To give precise estimates, you need to know in advance which problems you'd have to solve, and you need to know exactly how you'll solve them (and thus how long it takes). You also have to know which unexpected problems need to be solved, which is simply impossible. You need to know the "unknown unknowns".

Back to difficult vs complex. Building a house is difficult and it's time and resource consuming. But we've built millions of houses already. We know exactly what is needed, what takes how many days, how many people are needed, what could go wrong, how to fix it if it goes wrong, and so on. Even though every house is different, we still know it needs walls, floors, a roof, and so on. Only the parameters change (number of walls, size of the rooms, which type of roof). We still have some things which we can't influence, for example the weather. But that is a "known unknown", because we know it can go wrong and we can prepare for it. Building a new house is still building a house, it's always the same.

Building (new) software however is not only difficult and time/resource consuming. It's complex. Sometimes extremely complex. Yes, we know a few things are always the same. We need a programming language, some lib/frameworks, good tools to work with all this, and so on. But, every software we build solves a completely different problem. A problem that probably never has been solved before, sometimes because no one tried before, sometimes because everyone else failed before, sometimes because no one else is actually aware of the problem that needs to be solved. While you try to solve the problem, you'll stumble across problems you were not aware before, which need to be solved before you can continue. These new problems were also probably never solved before, because no one was in that exact same situation before. You stumble across "unknown unknowns" all the time, things that no one could have taken into consideration before. Imagine you build a house and you knew rain could happen, so you prepared for the rain coming from above...and then completely unexpected, you realize that because you're not on planet earth, the rain is actually made of acid instead of water or falling horizontally instead of vertically. That's what happens in software development all the time. You can't prepare for this. Only after you've found and implemented a solution for this, you'll know how long it'd take to fix it the next time or that it even might happen.

Dang...I wanted to write just a few sentences only :D Well...IMHO, Dash Core should not give estimates and dates which exceed the next milestone. Also, if the next milestone is months away, the estimates should be very vague. We're building something here that is so new and under-researched, it's simply impossible to estimate how long everything will take. We've got a very experienced and professional team here, which for sure can solve every problem and task that comes along, but no one knows which and how many these will be.
 
Some good discussion going on here - lets just hope Core gets their act together with communications before Dash becomes even bigger. Without fixing the issue, the bigger the embarrassment and trust issues will snowball. I would like Dash to become a well known brand that people can trust and at this point, @Ryan Taylor can keep making great speeches but this will have less of an effect if he doesn't follow his word on the road-map and communications about your core product.

I would like to get a few more things off my chest:

1) The Dash Conference itself was great in terms of networking, building morale and getting more exposure out there which I felt it exceeded my expectations. The main thing that alarmed/scared me was the lack of updates and information about Evolution. @Chuck Williams speech was great (he is an amazing orotor and great Dash brand ambassador) but the the last time we saw screenshots, proof of work or a demo of Evolution was back in November 2016 in the video below. You cannot tell me there hasn't been any progress or something changed from those screenshots in almost 1 year of work with 30+ developers you can share or demo to the world???? DAPI? DashDrive?? Not like we can see whats going on because its all in a hidden github repository, which for first mover advantage I would agree with, if there were some regular proof of work updates!!!

2) Whats going on with business development, another black hole which @Minotaur Daniel Diaz has once again fallen off the face of the earth (wasnt at the conference) , the Core team are looking to hire a global business dev resource and no discussion of business dev at the conference and seems like everything shrouded in secrecy. Is this why Ryan could not make any integration announcements at the conference??, Is Ryan flat-out taking over doing business development instead of focusing on CEO duties???

If we all want Dash to become the powerhouse that we are all dreaming of, we need to keep those who have the most influence accountable, transparent and on track of their promises.

Edit: Read the progress reports from Alt 36 to see how a professional org provides monthly updates on their flagship solution, from a technical, marketing, UX/UI and business dev approach, its all there in a nice formatted PDF each month.....
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top